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Forums - Politics Discussion - Biden vs Trump 2024 Political Platforms, Policies and Issues

The_Yoda said:
zorg1000 said:

Republicans never cared about fiscal responsibility, certainly not since 1980. The Reagan, Bush & Trump administrations all had massive increases to the national debt, in large part from tax cuts for the wealthy and ramping up military spending. Then they turn around and tell Americans we need to cut programs that help them.

In that same time frame, Clinton was the only president to have a surplus and under Obama/Biden much of the debt has gone to recovery efforts for things that started before they were in office (Great Recession/Covid Pandemic) and investments that will help the general population (Obama-largest expanding of healthcare since the 60s, Biden-largest investment in infrastructure since the 50s).

Republicans get credit for being fiscally responsible not because of their policies, it’s because they complain loudly about the debt while doing nothing about it.

Can you remind me who controlled Congress during Clinton's presidency?  Are you really only gonna pat Clinton's back?

The eight years of the Clinton Administration were divided into four Congresses, each lasting two years. The Democrats controlled the first one, and Republicans controlled the other three, though with their majority in the House diminishing with each election. The 104th Congress (the second under Clinton) was the first time Republicans controlled both houses of Congress since 1953. What also happened at that time? The surplus in FY 2000 is $237 billion—the third consecutive surplus and the largest surplus ever. Largest Three-Year Debt Pay-Down Ever: Between 1998-2000, the publicly held debt was reduced by $363 billion—the largest three-year pay-down in American history.  Yep and this happened with a sitting Democrat as President. The Cigar Swirller himself was not the driver, he merely closed the door and took a ride. 

I wish today's republicans would remember that both sides can work in tandem to get things achieved.  The Democrats aren't much better and their lockstep (with few Manchinish  exceptions) is not what's best for the country but what's best for their party. 

I’m pretty sure it was the 1993 Reconciliation bill, which increased taxes on the wealthy and corporations, that led to the balanced budgets of late 90s. This bill had zero Republican support.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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Tober said:
Hiku said:

You previously said you believe Putin did not want to invade Ukraine while Trump was in charge, because he was in charge.
The same Trump you describe as having a more pacifistic approach to war. And instead, Putin chose to invade while USA was lead by the "more war hungry" Biden.

If you read my question again, do you understand it now?
And I would appreciate if you eventually reply to my other reply to you as well where I go more into detail about this, although I understand that you have many people to respond to, so no rush.

I don't know if Putin did not invade Ukraine while Trump was in charge, because he was in charge, because I'm not a mind reader. I just stated the fact that this is what happened. The only thing we do know are a series of events. Northsea pipeline blown up, Door to Nato opened for Ukraine, then invasion of Ukraine by Putin.

 

And it’s a good thing someone competent, like Biden, was President of the US at the time, rather than Trump—who proved so weak on Putin that he was considered a Russian asset by the Director of the FBI.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Tober said:
Hiku said:

You previously said you believe Putin did not want to invade Ukraine while Trump was in charge, because he was in charge.
The same Trump you describe as having a more pacifistic approach to war. And instead, Putin chose to invade while USA was lead by the "more war hungry" Biden.

If you read my question again, do you understand it now?
And I would appreciate if you eventually reply to my other reply to you as well where I go more into detail about this, although I understand that you have many people to respond to, so no rush.

I don't know if Putin did not invade Ukraine while Trump was in charge, because he was in charge, because I'm not a mind reader. I just stated the fact that this is what happened. The only thing we do know are a series of events. Northsea pipeline blown up, Door to Nato opened for Ukraine, then invasion of Ukraine by Putin.

Nord Stream (one of the pipelines) was sabotaged after Russia had already invaded and Russia was using it to hold European countries to ransom anyway, Lol. Far as I'm concerned, I don't care that it was blown up, less funding to Russia's war machine the better and Europe coped just fine without it, but it wasn't even in active use anyway.

I'm 100% confident that Russia would have had no issue doing their full scale invasion of Ukraine during the tenure of the softest President on Russia in recent history, why would they not? Trump was licking Putin's boots at every opportunity. The only thing I'd say is Putin maybe didn't feel the need to rush things under Trump and expected him to win a 2nd term. COVID also likely delayed things a bit, be a bit stupid to send thousands of soldiers crammed together during the peak of a deadly pandemic and finally, amassing an army to take a country the size of Ukraine takes a long time, especially when done under the disguise of a "special military operation" instead of a full country mobilisation.

It's more likely that Putin had planned to do it during Trump's presidency because he knew Trump would do nothing but COVID delayed those plans, then once Trump lost, it was already too late to back out, it was now or never for Putin, he isn't getting any younger and Ukraine would only grow stronger. We could see Russia's huge military build-up as early as March 2021, plans to invade were likely made before Biden even became President. But why are you blaming Biden for Russia invading anyway? They're their own independent country who makes their own choices, do you also blame Trump for every conflict happening around the world or which had started during his tenure? I see a lot from Trump fans about how Trump will bring peace to the world, stop all wars, as if he's some sort of messiah but never actually give an explanation how he will do this.

Plus...He didn't achieve this during his first tenure.

What is almost guaranteed to happen, is Trump will stop supporting Ukraine because he's obsessed with Putin, Russia themselves very publicly state they hope that Trump comes back into power, Prigozhin, a former lapdog of Putin, straight up admitted to interfering with US elections. Trump winning will lead to more innocents being slaughtered in Ukraine and further Russia's goals of genocide on Ukrainian people. But Trump supporters somehow believe that looking the other way while another country is slaughtered equates to peace?

People fear that standing up to fascists will cause larger conflicts when actually it's the reverse, turning a blind eye to countries like Russia, Nazi Germany, etc. Further convinces them they can take more because everyone is afraid of them, nobody will stand up to them, their greed and arrogance will grow and psychopaths like Putin being arrogant is very dangerous and why they must be stopped early. Russia for years pushed this, seeing what they can get away with, from Chechnya to Georgia to Transnistria to Crimea/Donbas and now the whole of Ukraine. This is arguably the first time that the modern world has made a firm stance against Russia's shit but it should have been done years ago, now Russia's appetite has grown from select regions to entire countries.

Biden actually standing up to Russia deserves credit, Trump meanwhile would throw Ukraine under the bus.

The door for NATO is Russian propaganda used as an excuse to justify their invasion. The "NATO door" for Ukraine wasn't even close to being open, Ukraine could not have joined as long as they were in active conflict and they were in active conflict because of Russia even before the full-scale invasion, as long as that remained true, countries would have (and already have) voted against Ukraine joining. Even after the war, if Ukraine manages to stop all conflict, kick Russia out of all their territory, it would be years before they could join but even with Ukraine wanting to join, so what? Ukraine is its own independent country and has the right to join NATO if it wants to and the reason so many countries near Russia want to join NATO is because Russia is such a massive dick to them all but somehow the victims get blamed.

If Russia wasn't such a dick to everyone near it, constantly sabre rattling, then maybe they wouldn't all hate Russia? Lol. Maybe they wouldn't want to join NATO, in fact countries like Finland and Sweden didn't want to until Russia invaded Ukraine. If Russia wasn't ran by a lunatic, maybe they could expand CSTO (their NATO equivalent) but even Armenia, a member of CSTO, is recently calling out Russia's shit and you don't see NATO invading countries for wanting to join CSTO.

NATO at the end of the day is a defensive organisation as well, Russia has nothing to fear unless they attack first. We know the NATO argument is nonsense though because it makes no sense when a little thought is put into it, nor does it even begin to justify the invasion of another country before they've even done you harm. The slaughter of thousands of innocents and attempted genocide. The reason Russia invaded is far simpler, Putin is getting older and he wants to set a legacy for himself, he wants to restore Russia to its former glory and retake some of their former territories, they want more control over the Black Sea, they want access to the wealth of natural resources in Ukraine, a fascist leader who simply wants more, he wants to expand his territory and it's not anymore complicated than that.

Russia themselves have essentially said this dozens of times, that Ukraine doesn't exist, that Ukrainian people don't exist and that the country is Russia's by right, their reasons for invading Ukraine have changed about a 100 times and contradicted themselves. The NATO argument is simply the easiest for their domestic audience to swallow but people in the West fall for it too. It's easier to sell a war against a much weaker country to the general public when you say it's against the whole of NATO, by saying "it's us vs the world" and NATO wants us all dead, it's an attempt to ignite the patriotic spirit in Russians to defend their motherland, Russia tries to paint this as a "defensive" move rather than an offensive one, that Russians must defend themselves from big bad NATO.

It's also easier to blame NATO when a much weaker (on paper) Ukraine embarrasses you on the battlefield multiple times.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 01 February 2024

Robert_Downey_Jr. said:
sundin13 said:

If you truly believe that Putin invaded Ukraine because Biden was soft, how does the fact that the war has lasted longer and been more devastating to Russia than really anyone expected, factor into that calculus? I can't tell you what Putin was thinking when he invaded Ukraine, but if he was thinking that he could get away with it with minimum cost, he was clearly wrong. 

Why should we hold that against Biden any more than Trump (the man who continuously weakened NATO and repeatedly attempted to cut our financial support for Ukraine)?

if it was so weak with a supposed sympathetic govt. that wouldn't help you'd think he'd have invaded then

Why start a full scale invasion when you can get what you want without one? Putin's aims were being advanced during Trump's presidency without a full out invasion, and the weakening of NATO meant that an invasion tomorrow would be in a better place than an invasion today. Like, if you know that the price of something is going to keep dropping, you wait until it stops dropping to make your purchase. When Biden became president, it became clear that the metaphorical price stopped dropping, so Putin made his move. 



Hiku said:

Would you like to start a war that the USA may get involved in under the president that dropped less bombs, or more bombs?

I'd rather not have the United States of America be involved in any war, unless it is to protect US citizens freedoms, our religions, our wives, and our children.


I'd rather there be no wars in the world.
I'd rather there be peace and harmony with and within every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

What, from each of the two president's running political platform on page one, was the most interesting to read? Why?

Last edited by Shtinamin_ - on 01 February 2024

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Robert_Downey_Jr. said:
Pemalite said:

The buildup includes the war.

Remember Russia invaded Ukraine before Biden was in power... I.E. Russia invading Crimea which is Ukraine.

Let's not shift the goal post here and start making concessions to justify your support for a specific presidential candidate.

Oh yes under Obama when Biden was VP I remember

Biden wasn't the commander in chief, ergo, Biden didn't make the decision. You should know better.

What about Russia’s attack on Ukrainian naval vessels in the Azov Sea when Trump was in power? It was not only a serious military provocation but also a violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty and it broke international law. 

That happened under Trump. And he did nothing. Literally... Nothing.

Biden was nowhere to be seen.

Be interesting to see how you twist THAT to make it Bidens fault.



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Shtinamin_ said:
Hiku said:

Would you like to start a war that the USA may get involved in under the president that dropped less bombs, or more bombs?

I'd rather not have the United States of America be involved in any war, unless it is to protect US citizens freedoms, our religions, our wives, and our children.


I'd rather there be no wars in the world.
I'd rather there be peace and harmony with and within every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

Those things will never happen, they'll always be some evil scumbag who takes advantage of others and tries to destroy peace. There are a lot of great people in the world but there's also a lot of evil bastards, that's humanity for you, we'll never not have them but we should stamp them out when they rear their ugly heads because they will give other evil people the confidence to do the same.

If Russia for example, is successful in Ukraine and beats the West's backing of Ukraine, what lessons will China learn from that? Simple really, the invasion of Taiwan will be back on and the world is too globally connected nowadays, invasions such as those on Ukraine or those which may happen to Taiwan will have an affect on other countries, will hurt other countries, even if not militarily.

The United States has the most powerful army in the world by far, they could actually do good with it, unfortunately they often do bad with it but Ukraine is one time where they're absolutely using their military industry for good, it's one of few times I've actually supported USA's military. The United States is (or was, until Republicans stopped it) helping a country defend itself against an aggressor which is determined to annihilate it.

Maybe USA are doing it for selfish reasons but who cares? It is saving lives, it is saving a country, it is the right thing from a moral perspective, it is the right thing for the human race, to stand up and fight against evil. Ukraine is fighting for its freedom, the thing that USA loves to shout about, Americans should be inspired by Ukraine courage, America knows too well about fighting for its freedom against tyrannical regimes and I say that as a Brit.

Should the USA not be involved in any war ever? Even if it was to defend allies? Or defend the innocent? The USA may feel cosy all the way over there across the ocean but if you let evil fester then it too will one day come for you as its appetite grows, the USA was chilling sitting out WW2 until Japan attacked them.

Russia is no exception, the country has publicly and multiple times threatened America, straight up expressed a desire to want to see America destroyed, Russia wants to destroy your freedoms and way of life, they can't do it at this moment because America would stomp them, but if they succeed with Ukraine, their appetite will grow, they will take more countries, they will keep pushing the limits until its at America's doorstep.

And does the bible only say to care about Americans or the whole human race?



the-pi-guy said:
Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

Oh yes under Obama when Biden was VP I remember

So you think that:

1.) Russia, out of nowhere, started planned this invasion within a few months of getting Biden getting elected?

2.) Russia who had been talking about Ukraine for years, suddenly decided not to invade during Trump's presidency, despite the fact that Trump was incredibly soft on Russia, praising Putin.

We're just going to ignore the conflict that continued during the Trump administration.

>More than 110 Ukrainian service members were killed in 2019.

https://www.rferl.org/a/two-ukrainian-soldiers-killed-over-bloody-weekend-in-donbas/30413810.html

We're going to just ignore that Putin continued to push on some of these issues during the Trump administration.  

>President Putin first suggested in 2019 that Russian-speaking residents might suffer a Srebrenica-like massacre if Ukraine regained full control of Donbas without guarantees.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56678665

No, no it must be Biden's fault. 

Obviously he was planning it.  Not sure why you're focusing on that and not when he ACTUALLY invaded 



I am Iron Man

Ryuu96 said:
Shtinamin_ said:

I'd rather not have the United States of America be involved in any war, unless it is to protect US citizens freedoms, our religions, our wives, and our children.


I'd rather there be no wars in the world.
I'd rather there be peace and harmony with and within every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

Those things will never happen, they'll always be some evil scumbag who takes advantage of others and tries to destroy peace. There are a lot of great people in the world but there's also a lot of evil bastards, that's humanity for you, we'll never not have them but we should stamp them out when they rear their ugly heads because they will give other evil people the confidence to do the same.

If Russia for example, is successful in Ukraine and beats the West's backing of Ukraine, what lessons will China learn from that? Simple really, the invasion of Taiwan will be back on and the world is too globally connected nowadays, invasions such as those on Ukraine or those which may happen to Taiwan will have an affect on other countries, will hurt other countries, even if not militarily.

The United States has the most powerful army in the world by far, they could actually do good with it, unfortunately they often do bad with it but Ukraine is one time where they're absolutely using their military industry for good, it's one of few times I've actually supported USA's military. The United States is (or was, until Republicans stopped it) helping a country defend itself against an aggressor which is determined to annihilate it.

Maybe USA are doing it for selfish reasons but who cares? It is saving lives, it is saving a country, it is the right thing from a moral perspective, it is the right thing for the human race, to stand up and fight against evil. Ukraine is fighting for its freedom, the thing that USA loves to shout about, Americans should be inspired by Ukraine courage, America knows too well about fighting for its freedom against tyrannical regimes and I say that as a Brit.

Should the USA not be involved in any war ever? Even if it was to defend allies? Or defend the innocent? The USA may feel cosy all the way over there across the ocean but if you let evil fester then it too will one day come for you as its appetite grows, the USA was chilling sitting out WW2 until Japan attacked them.

Russia is no exception, the country has publicly and multiple times threatened America, straight up expressed a desire to want to see America destroyed, Russia wants to destroy your freedoms and way of life, they can't do it at this moment because America would stomp them, but if they succeed with Ukraine, their appetite will grow, they will take more countries, they will keep pushing the limits until its at America's doorstep.

And does the bible only say to care about Americans or the whole human race?

I know that there will be evil, for we are in a fallen world. There is also good.

I assume you are implying that the USA needs to be the police of the world.
I think it is important to never force people to do something, and it is important to stand up for agency, morality and all that is objectively good.
I also think that as a country the USA needs to 1st take care of itself, 2nd take care of others. And seeing what the citizens are doing in the USA is disconcerting, robberies, murders, disregard for the family, drug usage, and a slew of other iceberg-like problems all the likes have never been in the USA on a scale as grand as this since pre-1886.
There is a fine balance between being a police force of the world, and being a military dictator.

I personally think that the USA is trying to give Ukraine the needed materials in order to win, and somehow not incite WWIII (even though the US has already sent men into Ukraine to fight along side them).
Just a thought (but not a smart one), maybe the USA wants Ukraine to earn it's freedom. Don't know honestly.

I never stated that the USA wouldn't get involved to protect their allies, I merely stated that the USA should guarantee the protection of its citizens freedoms, religions, wives, and children. Yes, USA should as well protect it's allies freedoms, religions, wives and children. 

Russia had lot's of countries under it's belt back when it was known as the USSR. Another reason why the USA was having wars all over the asian countries, Vietnam, Korea, etc.

The Bible says that we should "Love one another", and not kill. Everyone should be able to love each other, and not kill each other. There's a lot more that the Bible says, but this is the point I was making.
The Bible contains messages for the whole world, not just the USA, but that doesn't mean the USA has to do everything for everyone. But I do agree that it should protects it's allies when those allies need it, and I do stand firm that the USA needs to protect itself too.

If only the people of the world didn't give in to pride.



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Robert_Downey_Jr. said:

Obviously he was planning it.  Not sure why you're focusing on that and not when he ACTUALLY invaded 

Because by the exact same logic, you could argue that Trump was responsible for Sony putting out 2 Astrobot games, whereas Sony has yet to put out a single Astrobot game during Biden's presidency.

Trump is responsible for Gamepass, since it came out just months after he became president.

Or that Trump was entirely responsible for Covid, since he was president when that happened. 

This reminds me of my uncle giving Trump credit for lowering prices months before he was president. No policy necessary.

Correlation does not imply causation

"When" does not matter. Unless you can show some definitive cause, and not just one happened after the other.