Tober said:
Hiku said:
You previously said you believe Putin did not want to invade Ukraine while Trump was in charge, because he was in charge. The same Trump you describe as having a more pacifistic approach to war. And instead, Putin chose to invade while USA was lead by the "more war hungry" Biden.
If you read my question again, do you understand it now? And I would appreciate if you eventually reply to my other reply to you as well where I go more into detail about this, although I understand that you have many people to respond to, so no rush.
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I don't know if Putin did not invade Ukraine while Trump was in charge, because he was in charge, because I'm not a mind reader. I just stated the fact that this is what happened. The only thing we do know are a series of events. Northsea pipeline blown up, Door to Nato opened for Ukraine, then invasion of Ukraine by Putin.
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Nord Stream (one of the pipelines) was sabotaged after Russia had already invaded and Russia was using it to hold European countries to ransom anyway, Lol. Far as I'm concerned, I don't care that it was blown up, less funding to Russia's war machine the better and Europe coped just fine without it, but it wasn't even in active use anyway.
I'm 100% confident that Russia would have had no issue doing their full scale invasion of Ukraine during the tenure of the softest President on Russia in recent history, why would they not? Trump was licking Putin's boots at every opportunity. The only thing I'd say is Putin maybe didn't feel the need to rush things under Trump and expected him to win a 2nd term. COVID also likely delayed things a bit, be a bit stupid to send thousands of soldiers crammed together during the peak of a deadly pandemic and finally, amassing an army to take a country the size of Ukraine takes a long time, especially when done under the disguise of a "special military operation" instead of a full country mobilisation.
It's more likely that Putin had planned to do it during Trump's presidency because he knew Trump would do nothing but COVID delayed those plans, then once Trump lost, it was already too late to back out, it was now or never for Putin, he isn't getting any younger and Ukraine would only grow stronger. We could see Russia's huge military build-up as early as March 2021, plans to invade were likely made before Biden even became President. But why are you blaming Biden for Russia invading anyway? They're their own independent country who makes their own choices, do you also blame Trump for every conflict happening around the world or which had started during his tenure? I see a lot from Trump fans about how Trump will bring peace to the world, stop all wars, as if he's some sort of messiah but never actually give an explanation how he will do this.
Plus...He didn't achieve this during his first tenure.
What is almost guaranteed to happen, is Trump will stop supporting Ukraine because he's obsessed with Putin, Russia themselves very publicly state they hope that Trump comes back into power, Prigozhin, a former lapdog of Putin, straight up admitted to interfering with US elections. Trump winning will lead to more innocents being slaughtered in Ukraine and further Russia's goals of genocide on Ukrainian people. But Trump supporters somehow believe that looking the other way while another country is slaughtered equates to peace?
People fear that standing up to fascists will cause larger conflicts when actually it's the reverse, turning a blind eye to countries like Russia, Nazi Germany, etc. Further convinces them they can take more because everyone is afraid of them, nobody will stand up to them, their greed and arrogance will grow and psychopaths like Putin being arrogant is very dangerous and why they must be stopped early. Russia for years pushed this, seeing what they can get away with, from Chechnya to Georgia to Transnistria to Crimea/Donbas and now the whole of Ukraine. This is arguably the first time that the modern world has made a firm stance against Russia's shit but it should have been done years ago, now Russia's appetite has grown from select regions to entire countries.
Biden actually standing up to Russia deserves credit, Trump meanwhile would throw Ukraine under the bus.
The door for NATO is Russian propaganda used as an excuse to justify their invasion. The "NATO door" for Ukraine wasn't even close to being open, Ukraine could not have joined as long as they were in active conflict and they were in active conflict because of Russia even before the full-scale invasion, as long as that remained true, countries would have (and already have) voted against Ukraine joining. Even after the war, if Ukraine manages to stop all conflict, kick Russia out of all their territory, it would be years before they could join but even with Ukraine wanting to join, so what? Ukraine is its own independent country and has the right to join NATO if it wants to and the reason so many countries near Russia want to join NATO is because Russia is such a massive dick to them all but somehow the victims get blamed.
If Russia wasn't such a dick to everyone near it, constantly sabre rattling, then maybe they wouldn't all hate Russia? Lol. Maybe they wouldn't want to join NATO, in fact countries like Finland and Sweden didn't want to until Russia invaded Ukraine. If Russia wasn't ran by a lunatic, maybe they could expand CSTO (their NATO equivalent) but even Armenia, a member of CSTO, is recently calling out Russia's shit and you don't see NATO invading countries for wanting to join CSTO.
NATO at the end of the day is a defensive organisation as well, Russia has nothing to fear unless they attack first. We know the NATO argument is nonsense though because it makes no sense when a little thought is put into it, nor does it even begin to justify the invasion of another country before they've even done you harm. The slaughter of thousands of innocents and attempted genocide. The reason Russia invaded is far simpler, Putin is getting older and he wants to set a legacy for himself, he wants to restore Russia to its former glory and retake some of their former territories, they want more control over the Black Sea, they want access to the wealth of natural resources in Ukraine, a fascist leader who simply wants more, he wants to expand his territory and it's not anymore complicated than that.
Russia themselves have essentially said this dozens of times, that Ukraine doesn't exist, that Ukrainian people don't exist and that the country is Russia's by right, their reasons for invading Ukraine have changed about a 100 times and contradicted themselves. The NATO argument is simply the easiest for their domestic audience to swallow but people in the West fall for it too. It's easier to sell a war against a much weaker country to the general public when you say it's against the whole of NATO, by saying "it's us vs the world" and NATO wants us all dead, it's an attempt to ignite the patriotic spirit in Russians to defend their motherland, Russia tries to paint this as a "defensive" move rather than an offensive one, that Russians must defend themselves from big bad NATO.
It's also easier to blame NATO when a much weaker (on paper) Ukraine embarrasses you on the battlefield multiple times.
Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 01 February 2024