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Forums - Gaming Discussion - (Business Perspective) Does MS really need Xbox Hardware?

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LudicrousSpeed on 20 May 2023
Norion said:
Azzanation said:

This is such a stupid excuse on calling out a company because a gaming company makes toys that link to their games. Really think about what you are saying.

I will disagree with you on this Amiibo hate. I like them and I know many who like them as well. To each their own. Don't like them, don't buy them. Its completely optional content.

You are worried about an optional $15 toy being anti consumer because it offers a in game skin, yet are forced to pay a fee to play half the game you already paid for online access. You have your priorities completely wrong. 

Disagree to agree with your statement.

It's not just a skin, it's often been stuff that has an impact on gameplay for example Samus Returns has a harder difficulty mode but it's locked behind an amiibo which for a lot of people is a way they'd like to replay the game so important content. And for people who decide to play a game like that years after it comes out getting the amiibo required for stuff like might not be cheap which results in piracy being the best way to experience games like that which is always a bad sign.

No no that’s fine because he bought some Halo GI Joe for $6 that came with a weapon skin DLC, that’s totally the same thing as a very difficult to find toy that unlocks an entirely new difficulty. Fire Emblem also had story stuff and new areas. In Twilight Princess the Wolf Link unlocked an entire dungeon. But it’s cool, “everyone does it” lol.



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Oneeee-Chan!!! on 20 May 2023

Amiibo.... WiiU and SEGA.



I'm disappointed that no one is discussing Xbox.



Oneeee-Chan!!! on 20 May 2023
LudicrousSpeed said:
Norion said:

It's not just a skin, it's often been stuff that has an impact on gameplay for example Samus Returns has a harder difficulty mode but it's locked behind an amiibo which for a lot of people is a way they'd like to replay the game so important content. And for people who decide to play a game like that years after it comes out getting the amiibo required for stuff like might not be cheap which results in piracy being the best way to experience games like that which is always a bad sign.

No no that’s fine because he bought some Halo GI Joe for $6 that came with a weapon skin DLC, that’s totally the same thing as a very difficult to find toy that unlocks an entirely new difficulty. Fire Emblem also had story stuff and new areas. In Twilight Princess the Wolf Link unlocked an entire dungeon. But it’s cool, “everyone does it” lol.

Hmmm...I always assumed you were someone who cared nothing for JRPGs or Nintendo.

Many xbox fans are weird people.



Azzanation on 21 May 2023
Machiavellian said:

1) I am not sure you have this one correct.  When Sega removed themselves from the market on hardware there was no Nintendo system at that time

Nintendo was still a player. People were still gaming on a Nintendo system. Customers can choose to not upgrade and wait.

2) This is where I do not understand your stance when it comes to business decisions.  EGS is not trying to lower Steams cut on games.  EGS is trying to entice developers to put their games on their storefront because Epic allows the developers 88% return selling on their storefront and only take a 12% cut.  This is in contrast to Valve taking 30% cut.  This is a competitive tactic to gain developers and increase games on EGS storefront.  Because of this Tactic, Valve must always be aware that they could lose developers support and if so will have to respond by lowering their cut.  Yes, Steam still takes 30% but what you do not understand is that Epic provides another storefront for any developer who does not want to pay that price.  That is what we call competition.  These are very basic stuff and the fact you are defending Valve still charging 30% seems illogical.  If you are a developer that is exactly what you want, more storefronts fighting for your game giving you the best chance to maximize your profits.

And where you and others fail to understand is it's not needed. Steam offers devs more sales than EGS, the devs make more money by taking less due to Steam's popularity. This is unnecessary competition to break up Steams PC monopoly and divide the market which PC gamers need to happen. I don't want more store fronts, I want less. I don't want to juggle my games from store front to store front. If that's what you want than your opinion is bad for the industry because you are supporting games being taking away from a popular store and force gamers to switch.  

3) I would say that Sony absolutely do not care about Bethesda games if they could remove MS from the market.  Also if MS give up their hardware, they must come to Sony on Sony terms.  That puts MS at an extremely disadvantage where they would need to accept basically whatever Sony offer.  Now you tell us all, exactly why would MS put themselves at the mercy of Sony for what gain.  If you thought the EU hit MS with concessions, what do you believe Sony would ask for.  You would have investors asking you to resign in a heartbeat.

So be it, if Sony say no than maybe Nintendo's next system will take Elder Scrolls 6. Less sales for Sony if that's the choice they want to make. I also heavily disagree. Sony have no issue selling Bethesda games on PS to this day. So whay would that change if Xbox hardware isn't a thing anymore?

4) Actually, MS is making deals to put ABK games on streaming platforms.  ABK make PC games or we should say ABK games are on consoles and PC so no porting.  Those streaming platforms are PC platforms and MS already make their games on PC and console.  What MS does not do is make their games on PS or Nintendo.  If GP is on PS or Nintendo system, they would either be streaming only which at this time would be a big miss or MS would need to port those games to PS and Nintendo because GP is a download service.  Azz, you seem to be missing very basic stuff which is killing your arguments.

You are missing my point. MS will support full streaming on all platforms, thats their push, weather gamers like it or not. If Streaming is the only access to their future line up, then gamers will have to adjust. Otherwise, they will be playing Skyrim while the new wave of gamers will be playing ES6.

5) Totally correct, you cannot run a business on assumptions but every argument you have provided are based on assumption.  You assume Sony wants MS games, You assume Sony or Nintendo will put GP on their platform.  You assume MS want out of the hardware business. You assume that GP can replace MS current revenue stream.  You assume XCloud is a replacement for Hardware.  I mean your whole argument is based on a lot of assumptions.  None of your arguments have anything in them where MS can say, Yes this will happen.  It's all a gamble.

Its based on business logic. MS will make more money with GP in the future, XCloud is another form of distribution (Replacing hardware) Sony saying no to Xbox games would be one of the stupidest moves a business can make, sure MS will have to abide to Sonys rules, but a board of directors wont say no to more income.

Annoucing new games and releasing new games is 2 different things.  We already had a number of announcements.  While I believe MS will start to get games out the door, nothing is guaranteed to be successful.  MS is a long way from having enough successful games to combat Sony or Nintendo.  I would say they are a generation behind, not only in games but in customer mindshare.

They released zero games last year and 2 this year, one being critically acclaimed and one being a disaster. You cant say they cant compete when they have only released 2 major titles in 2 years. 20+ Studios are all cooking something. You literally believe 20 studios are not doing anything?

Pemalite said:

The 7th generation consoles PROVED that Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo. Aka. 3 competitors can thrive in the console market at the same time with the Wii (101~ million), PS3 (87~ million), Xbox (84~ million) all being profitable and highly successful platforms in their own right.

PS3 lost Sony $5b and 360 lost MS $3b.

Xbox 360 and PS3 losses total $8 billion, ex-Sony employee paints grim future | VG247

As for the rest, I disagree with your Sega analogy. History show shown time and time again that with 3 consoles, 1 gets burnt.

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Pemalite said:

1) I already outlined how the Epic Game Store has influenced and changed Steam.
I am not going to constantly repeat myself, re-read my prior post as those points are all still relevant.

2) Steam doesn't take 30%. They have different cuts depending on sales.

3) Steam having less cut for games, means more money for developers, which means less sales required for developers to turn a profit and keep making games. - This is basic business sense. - More games benefits the consumers.

4) Discord distributes/sells games and apps. - Discord interfaces with many games as a forum/chat client.

---

You have proven zero benefits customers gain from EGS yet i have supplied reasons why customers don't like EGS.

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Pemalite said:

I never made that claim.

Yet you felt the need to say the opposite to what I was saying?

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Pemalite said:

Microsoft's "deals" are partly to pass a purchase of Activision Blizzard.

I never asserted porting is hard.
I said porting is required.

Yes and i have been saying this, yet it seems this seems to be a arguments case?

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Pemalite said:

Your entire argument is based on baseless assumptions.

Its based on business logic.

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Pemalite said:

They have been doing that for years...

And that's because they havent released anything for 2 years apart from Pentiment and Hi Fi Rush. I hope you dont believe 20+ studios are not just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, otherwise that would require a facepalm.

LudicrousSpeed said:
Norion said:

It's not just a skin, it's often been stuff that has an impact on gameplay for example Samus Returns has a harder difficulty mode but it's locked behind an amiibo which for a lot of people is a way they'd like to replay the game so important content. And for people who decide to play a game like that years after it comes out getting the amiibo required for stuff like might not be cheap which results in piracy being the best way to experience games like that which is always a bad sign.

No no that’s fine because he bought some Halo GI Joe for $6 that came with a weapon skin DLC, that’s totally the same thing as a very difficult to find toy that unlocks an entirely new difficulty. Fire Emblem also had story stuff and new areas. In Twilight Princess the Wolf Link unlocked an entire dungeon. But it’s cool, “everyone does it” lol.

Amiibos are made for collectors. If you arent a collector of figurines than its not for you. If you literally believe this is taking advantage of customers while you are paying for online access shows you have your priorities wrong. 

I like the Amiibos, I think they are a great addition, you, Norion and Don can disagree all you like. Just because you guys dislike them doesn't mean others have to. I hope they continue the idea with their next console. 

Last edited by Azzanation - on 21 May 2023

Pemalite on 21 May 2023
Azzanation said:

PS3 lost Sony $5b and 360 lost MS $3b.

Xbox 360 and PS3 losses total $8 billion, ex-Sony employee paints grim future | VG247

Seems your ability to comprehend is limited in this instance... And your evidence is shoddy.

The link asserts that Sony spent almost 5 billion and Microsoft spent almost 3 billion.
This isn't "losses" but rather "investment". All in the wording.

The article also states it's the consoles themselves which loose money, not the division itself, that is loosing money... And we know the Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 eventually became profitable because Sony and Microsoft said as much.

The article is also built upon "assumptions" as literally headlined via Kotaku, so I rest my case.

https://www.destructoid.com/playstation-3-is-finally-profitable/
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/microsoft-s-xbox-360-division-sees-1-32-billion-profit-for-fiscal-year-2011

Azzanation said:

As for the rest, I disagree with your Sega analogy. History show shown time and time again that with 3 consoles, 1 gets burnt.

AGAIN. Sega failed with only a SINGLE competitor.

Sega's failure isn't due to there being significant competition, it was due to their own silly decisions, much like Microsoft with the Xbox One and Nintendo with the WiiU and Sony with the Vita.

Have you ever thought that there is more to a product failing than just being "to much" competition and rather just shit product decisions?


Azzanation said:

You have proven zero benefits customers gain from EGS yet i have supplied reasons why customers don't like EGS.

I literally listed some.

I will re-quote as your ability to read seems limited during our discussion.

Pemalite said:

3) Steam having less cut for games, means more money for developers, which means less sales required for developers to turn a profit and keep making games. - This is basic business sense. - More games benefits the consumers.

You are going to *have* to do better with your rebuttals and stop propagating blatant lies.


Azzanation said:

Yet you felt the need to say the opposite to what I was saying?

You aren't reading what I am saying and just making up your own fairytale, I suggest you go back and re-read the replies in their intended context.


Azzanation said:

Yes and i have been saying this, yet it seems this seems to be a arguments case?

Lies.
Go back and re-read the replies in their intended context.

Azzanation said:

Its based on business logic.

You have provided the necessary empirical evidence that showcases the majority of your replies and fabrications are based on "hypothetical's" rather than real world events or evidence. - I have no idea why, nor do I care, but I will provide a rebuttal when you are blatantly wrong and being disingenuous like you have been.

Azzanation said:

And that's because they havent released anything for 2 years apart from Pentiment and Hi Fi Rush. I hope you dont believe 20+ studios are not just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, otherwise that would require a facepalm.

Another lie.
Microsoft is struggling with quality, not just quantity.

Redfall being the latest in exclusive jokes... Or let's not forget crackdown back in 2019? Halo Infinite failed to achieve greatness along the lines of Halo 1-2-3-Reach. What about Fallout 76? I can go on, but I think you (hopefully) get my point.

I never asserted that I believe 20+ studios are sitting around twiddling their thumbs, that is your lie, not mine.

...But considering we are still waiting on Fable, Perfect Dark, Starfield, Hellblade 2, Elderscrolls 6, Everwild and more which have all been announced but no further information/delays/no release date... Doesn't leave much faith in Microsoft being able to push Gamepass with quality titles... We don't know if they will even be decent games considering the current track record.

Their game output hasn't been great, the Xbox One was poorly supported in terms of exclusives and that is still on-going with the Series consoles, that -will not- change even if Microsoft abandons the console market, their game developers and hardware developers are separate entities.

It's also why I support Microsoft buying Activision Blizzard, Microsoft will finally get some more noteworthy games.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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LudicrousSpeed on 21 May 2023
Azzanation said:

Amiibos are made for collectors. If you arent a collector of figurines than its not for you. If you literally believe this is taking advantage of customers while you are paying for online access shows you have your priorities wrong. 

I like the Amiibos, I think they are a great addition, you, Norion and Don can disagree all you like. Just because you guys dislike them doesn't mean others have to. I hope they continue the idea with their next console. 

They can make toy figures for collectors while not locking substantial content for their video games behind them. And you're free to like them all you want, not a single person here has said or implied that you shouldn't like them because we don't like them.



Azzanation on 21 May 2023
Pemalite said:

SIP

Quote from article

"Microsoft has spent some $2.996bn on Xbox 360 since it launched in 2005, while Sony has fared worse, spending $4.951 billion on PS3. Both figures are a loss"

I have no doubt they both made their money back, especially Xbox since they had Live Subs active at the time. But Hardware is a massive expense, something MS can remove since they have another form of game distribution growing.

I will disagree with you and your Sega analogy. It doesn't matter either way, the 3rd wheel doesn't stay around forever. We have seen many companies come and go constantly within the console space. Xbox is on its 4th generation, just like Sega were when they pulled out. 

Your defense of EGS isn't a good one. Your only claim is that EGS offers a superior review system.. Yeah that's not worth the competition to strip games off another service to place them on a inferior one. You can use EGS, ill stick to Steam.

Redfall is a joke but HiFi Rush isn't. So if you are going to hate Xbox for Redfall than you need to praise them for HiFi. You cannot just hate when they do something bad and ignore when they do something good. MS need ABK to insert much needed gaming revenue back into the business. Sony claimed they invest big on their 1st party games based on CoD money so maybe this will entice Xbox to do the same if the deal goes through.



Azzanation on 21 May 2023
LudicrousSpeed said:
Azzanation said:

Amiibos are made for collectors. If you arent a collector of figurines than its not for you. If you literally believe this is taking advantage of customers while you are paying for online access shows you have your priorities wrong. 

I like the Amiibos, I think they are a great addition, you, Norion and Don can disagree all you like. Just because you guys dislike them doesn't mean others have to. I hope they continue the idea with their next console. 

They can make toy figures for collectors while not locking substantial content for their video games behind them. And you're free to like them all you want, not a single person here has said or implied that you shouldn't like them because we don't like them.

My point I am trying to make it that this Amiibo idea is nothing more than to entice collectors etc. I understand cutting modes and content isn't ideal but majority of Amiibos are just Skins. Also this has little to do with the thread. If this is Nintendo ripping me off than I think I am doing pretty fine. 



Machiavellian on 21 May 2023
Azzanation said:

Nintendo was still a player. People were still gaming on a Nintendo system. Customers can choose to not upgrade and wait.

I do not care about the Sega narrative since I like to say on topic so I will leave that one alone.  My point is that Sega died because of bad business decisions and since then they have not been the same even in software.

Azzanation said:

And where you and others fail to understand is it's not needed. Steam offers devs more sales than EGS, the devs make more money by taking less due to Steam's popularity. This is unnecessary competition to break up Steams PC monopoly and divide the market which PC gamers need to happen. I don't want more store fronts, I want less. I don't want to juggle my games from store front to store front. If that's what you want than your opinion is bad for the industry because you are supporting games being taking away from a popular store and force gamers to switch.  

So you are trying to tell everyone that EGS is not needed, are you a developer.  If Steam offered more sales than EGS why does EGS get developers to put their games on their Storefront.  Why does any game get put on any other Storefront if Steam is the only one to use.  I mean it just seems like you really have no real business sense if you do not understand this simple concept.  It does not matter what you want.  You continue to move from talking about business to your own personal wants.  YOU DO NOT DEFINE THE MARKET.  This is why your arguments are all over the place because the majority of it is based on your opinion but now exactly what you stated was the thread meaning.  You have not provided an argument that is based on what a business want but instead have continued to throw in your own personal opinion and assumptions.  The thing is EGS offer another store front whether you like it or not.  It offer another store front for customers and developers/publishers.  EGS continue to gain customers and developers and offer competition to Valve whether you like it or not because that is business.  If Valve ever stumbles, get greedy lose site of customers, they EGS will be there to pick them up.

Azzanation said:

So be it, if Sony say no than maybe Nintendo's next system will take Elder Scrolls 6. Less sales for Sony if that's the choice they want to make. I also heavily disagree. Sony have no issue selling Bethesda games on PS to this day. So whay would that change if Xbox hardware isn't a thing anymore?

Maybe Nintendo will.  All your points are maybe.  Everything is just some assumption.  You stated yourself, no corporation can run their business on assumptions.  It's not that Sony has any issue in selling MS games, it's that Sony doesn't need MS games on their console.  If Sony is the only High end Console on the market, they already getting all the games and all the customers.  They would be in an even more dominate position then they are today.  You think Sony will say, "Hey look at how much more money we can make selling MS games",  I say "Look how much more money we can make by forcing MS to leave the market and selling their games division".  Both are assumptions but the thing is, to directly state Sony will do something without understanding what Sony wants, is pure gamblig.  The second point is if Sony is going to allow MS to sell their games on PS, what will MS have to give up in the process.  If MS cannot sell their games on Sony hardware which mind you probably will be the only real console hardware that probably will be able to play their games, where do MS go to.  You say Nintendo, but you are still playing the high risk assumption game.

Azzanation said:

You are missing my point. MS will support full streaming on all platforms, thats their push, weather gamers like it or not. If Streaming is the only access to their future line up, then gamers will have to adjust. Otherwise, they will be playing Skyrim while the new wave of gamers will be playing ES6.

Why is that point worth anything today.  MS does not offer full streaming on all platforms because MS is not on all platforms.  Your assumption is that Nintendo and Sony will allow GP on their platform.  You are risking the business on an assumption where MS streaming directly competes with Sony and Nintendo offering.  No one will understand this point because no one believes Sony nor Nintendo will allow GP on their platform without neutering it.  Then you state the biggest misconception, "Whether gamers like it or not".  So if gamers do not like streaming their games how exactly is MS going to grow, GP.  So you believe that Gamers will just not decide to play ES6 but then ignore all the gamers who are purchasing a PS5 now and not an Xbox S/X.  You seem to put a lot of importance on MS games as if they are needed by Sony and Nintendo.

Azzanation said:

Its based on business logic. MS will make more money with GP in the future, XCloud is another form of distribution (Replacing hardware) Sony saying no to Xbox games would be one of the stupidest moves a business can make, sure MS will have to abide to Sonys rules, but a board of directors wont say no to more income.

In what future, how far away is this future you keep talking about.  A future where MS is dependent on other companies allowing them to put their games and GP on their platform.  I see you have no clue how a board operates.  If Sony is the only console in town and the only one gaining all the customers who want a high end console, they already have all the games.  All the games that would be coming to MS, all the indies, new studios, existing studios and publishers all now go to Sony.  For the money Sony will make with everyone coming to them, do you think the money they will be missing from MS will mean that much.  I will agree with you, that Sony will probably not deny MS to publish their games on their console but GP, in what form does that happen.  Definitely not in its current form but somehow you believe this is what customers will want.

Azzanation said:

They released zero games last year and 2 this year, one being critically acclaimed and one being a disaster. You cant say they cant compete when they have only released 2 major titles in 2 years. 20+ Studios are all cooking something. You literally believe 20 studios are not doing anything?

MS is not competing if all you have is one good game against just about everything Sony released last year and this year.  Sony and Nintendo have not missed a beat, while MS has constantly struggled to get any game out.  I could list so many exclusive high profile games released from Sony and Nintendo while from MS its been limited at best. I am not saying that MS cannot compete, I am saying because of how bad 2022 was and the start of 2023 compared to the other vendors, MS is a gen behind.  This means that all MS games must hit hard for the rest of the year to even be considered in the same conversation as Sony or Nintendo.  This has set back MS big time in all their future plans because it doesn't matter if GP is on everything if people do not care about MS games.  First MS needs to make consumers care about their games before MS can care about how many subs they are going to be able to achieve.



Drakrami on 21 May 2023

Because hardware is the backbone of the gaming division. If they stopped producing hardware, might as well close down the gaming division. Working on software and streaming alone does not work. You can see examples from Netflix and Google, both with expertise, enormous resources and scope and fail to make any inroads into the gaming market.