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Shtinamin_ said:
Machiavellian said:

It will, as we all know in politics doing anything that makes the other party look good is never a good thing.  That is why nothing ever gets done unless one party or the other has full control of both congress and the president office.

Why are people so worked up over which party did what?
Shouldn't legal U.S. citizens be trying to make our country, and community better in every aspect?
Why can't everyone work together as a team?

Pride (it's on both sides) and the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.

Oh come on, the Democrats are constantly "meeting Republicans in the middle" and then the Republicans go further to the right and scream at the Democrats not "meeting them in the middle" whilst constantly changing what the middle is and further moving it to the right.

The Republicans said no more aid to Ukraine unless it's tied to a border deal, they tied Ukrainian lives to their campaign of hatred towards immigrants, all because they wanted a political win for the upcoming election, the Democrats compromised once again and tied a pretty right wing border deal to Ukraine aid, then Trump said "NO. DON'T VOTE FOR IT" and suddenly the Republicans no longer want it.

Now the border deal is dead and Ukraine aid is once again hanging in the balance.

Despite the Republicans demanding the two be tied together but their messiah Trump said no so now nothing.



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Shtinamin_ said:
TallSilhouette said:

Gee I wonder where you got this buzzword and how it affects your opinion of the LGBT community and alternative lifestyles...

That is not a buzzword. That is prophecy.

I am trying to see things in an unbiased sense, which is why I asked those questions.

sundin13 said:

Criticizing the "dysfunction of the family unit" as others have said often sounds like a bit of a dog whistle, but I would like you to explain what you mean by this before I respond to it or criticize. So, care to explain plainly what "the dysfunction of the family unit" means to you?


The disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations great calamities. Hence why I said the destruction of the United States of America.

I don't care what people are told to do (in a informational setting), I personally like to learn for myself, ponder the studying, and find examples, and understand what will be a consequence (good or bad). No one likes a sheeple.

In order for me to fully explain, I would have to go to topics that aren't political, so I'll just give the basic idea.
I firmly believe that the family is a fundamental unit in society. A common family is one with a man and a woman legally bonded in matrimony, that respect and preserve their marital vows with complete fidelity, with the want to have children (and eventually, hopefully, do), and the parents teach their children. Both parents are to help one another as equal partners as well. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.

I search for responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere (and hopefuly they are some) that promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

I'm sure the world will survive with less people wanting children or wanting to be married, Lol.



Ryuu96 said:
Shtinamin_ said:

Why are people so worked up over which party did what?
Shouldn't legal U.S. citizens be trying to make our country, and community better in every aspect?
Why can't everyone work together as a team?

Pride (it's on both sides) and the dysfunction of the family unit will lead to the destruction of the United States of America.

Oh come on, the Democrats are constantly "meeting Republicans in the middle" and then the Republicans go further to the right and scream at the Democrats not "meeting them in the middle" whilst constantly changing what the middle is and further moving it to the right.

The Republicans said no more aid to Ukraine unless it's tied to a border deal, they tied Ukrainian lives to their campaign of hatred towards immigrants, all because they wanted a political win for the upcoming election, the Democrats compromised once again and tied a pretty right wing border deal to Ukraine aid, then Trump said "NO. DON'T VOTE FOR IT" and suddenly the Republicans no longer want it.

Now the border deal is dead and Ukraine aid is once again hanging in the balance.

Despite the Republicans demanding the two be tied together but their messiah Trump said no so now nothing.

Ok.

Personally, I believe everyone has their own agency to choose and do whatever. But they are unable to choose the consequences of what they choose to do.

Also my questions had nothing to do with the Border deal.

But in regards to it, there were even 14 democrats that disapproved of the deal.

May I ask why you (also for anyone too) think America needs to provide Ukraine with more funds?



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Shtinamin_ said:

That is not a buzzword. That is prophecy.

I am trying to see things in an unbiased sense, which is why I asked those questions.

If you want to be unbiased, maybe try getting away from "prophecy". 

Shtinamin_ said:

In order for me to fully explain, I would have to go to topics that aren't political, so I'll just give the basic idea.
I firmly believe that the family is a fundamental unit in society. A common family is one with a man and a woman legally bonded in matrimony, that respect and preserve their marital vows with complete fidelity, with the want to have children (and eventually, hopefully, do), and the parents teach their children. Both parents are to help one another as equal partners as well. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.

I search for responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere (and hopefuly they are some) that promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

A lot of these "issues" have existed forever. 
Tons of presidents have had affairs. Thomas Jefferson had affairs with his slaves. JFK was known for having several affairs, including one with Marilyn Monroe. 


The issue isn't that any of these things have gotten worse, the issue is that people today have less support.

There's more acceptance for LGBT groups, but LGBT people are still frequently disowned or bullied by friends and family, in some cases are outright murdered. 

More people are abandoning abusive marriages and infidelity in marriages in favor of more positive views. That's generally a good thing, but it also means there's frequently fewer support mechanisms for people. 

There's also increasing "individualism", where people are doing things that benefit themselves at the cost of others.  

Shtinamin_ said:

So why do people need to be in a party?

They don't, but America is built on having two divisive parties due to it's winner take all approach, and lack of ranked choice voting. 



Shtinamin_ said:

May I ask why you (also for anyone too) think America needs to provide Ukraine with more funds?

Because America should be doing what it can to prevent dictators from murdering people in another country.



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the-pi-guy said:
Shtinamin_ said:

That is not a buzzword. That is prophecy.

I am trying to see things in an unbiased sense, which is why I asked those questions.

If you want to be unbiased, maybe try getting away from "prophecy". 

Shtinamin_ said:

In order for me to fully explain, I would have to go to topics that aren't political, so I'll just give the basic idea.
I firmly believe that the family is a fundamental unit in society. A common family is one with a man and a woman legally bonded in matrimony, that respect and preserve their marital vows with complete fidelity, with the want to have children (and eventually, hopefully, do), and the parents teach their children. Both parents are to help one another as equal partners as well. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.

I search for responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere (and hopefuly they are some) that promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

A lot of these "issues" have existed forever. 
Tons of presidents have had affairs. Thomas Jefferson had affairs with his slaves. JFK was known for having several affairs, including one with Marilyn Monroe. 


The issue isn't that any of these things have gotten worse, the issue is that people today have less support.

There's more acceptance for LGBT groups, but LGBT people are still frequently disowned or bullied by friends and family, in some cases are outright murdered. 

More people are abandoning abusive marriages and infidelity in marriages in favor of more positive views. That's generally a good thing, but it also means there's frequently fewer support mechanisms for people. 

There's also increasing "individualism", where people are doing things that benefit themselves at the cost of others.  

Shtinamin_ said:

So why do people need to be in a party?

They don't, but America is built on having two divisive parties due to it's winner take all approach, and lack of ranked choice voting. 

The choice word I used was not in relation to me saying "I am trying to see things in an unbiased sense, which is why I asked those questions." That phrase was in relation to just the questions.

"The issue isn't that any of these things have gotten worse, the issue is that people today have less support."
Yep, agreed.

Honestly it is sad that people are so mean to them (and committing crimes), I feel like we as humans should try to love other humans. Just because some people don't like something that another does, doesn't mean that we can be rude, and uncivilized to them. We can love the person, and dislike the action, and that goes for anyone doing anything.

Individualism comes from pride, and not caring about what your actions will do to/for others. There's nothing wrong about having your own ideas and actions, but it would be nice if people were more aware.

Also, yeah that makes total sense, winner take all. Thanks. Didn't George Washington disapprove of political parties (factions at the time)?



*Adding to the post above as well

I understand, and hopefully the killing can end soon, with the least amount of deaths (to no killing, that would be best) until the war is over.

Last edited by Shtinamin_ - on 08 February 2024

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Shtinamin_ said:
Machiavellian said:

You must be new to politics.  Politics is about message.  If you can say you did this that make people believe it helped them you get support.  The message doesn't even have to be true as long as you can convince people that it is true.  So in politics, if you belong to one party and the other party is in control, you stifle everything that would benefit everyone because it makes the other party look good and they stay in power.  You are trying to apply logic to the process but your logic only really work if both parties actually did not seek power but instead seek improvement to the country.

So why do people need to be in a party?

Which people, the constituents or the politicians.  For the constituents, its because they believe the party aligns with what they believe in.  Also if you are not part of the party you cannot vote in the primary which allows you to choose who runs at least for President in your party. For the politicians, it would be the same thing right.  The party you in is the one that aligns mostly with what you believe in or at least the main issues.

The funny thing is, if you gave many people who belong to either party a blind survey on the things they believe in, the majority of them would find they have more in common than not.  The thing is, there are certain principles or subjects they strongly disagree on and those usually end up being the topic they vote for.

Case in point, I have a friend who absolutely hates Trump but he would vote for him if he win the primary because he would be the GOP candidate and he is strongly against abortion.



Machiavellian said:
Shtinamin_ said:

So why do people need to be in a party?

Which people, the constituents or the politicians.  For the constituents, its because they believe the party aligns with what they believe in.  Also if you are not part of the party you cannot vote in the primary which allows you to choose who runs at least for President in your party. For the politicians, it would be the same thing right.  The party you in is the one that aligns mostly with what you believe in or at least the main issues.

The funny thing is, if you gave many people who belong to either party a blind survey on the things they believe in, the majority of them would find they have more in common than not.  The thing is, there are certain principles or subjects they strongly disagree on and those usually end up being the topic they vote for.

Case in point, I have a friend who absolutely hates Trump but he would vote for him if he win the primary because he would be the GOP candidate and he is strongly against abortion.

So why doesn't America stop using political parties? 

We all want the betterment of the country we live in, but people have different ideas as to how to make the country they live in better.

That is some party determination there.



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Shtinamin_ said:
Ryuu96 said:

-Snip-


May I ask why you (also for anyone too) think America needs to provide Ukraine with more funds?

There should be no other reason other than simply doing the right thing, for the betterment of the human species, standing up to fascists around the world, but I understand humanity is full of selfish people so for more reasons...

1. The vast majority of equipment which America has been sending to Ukraine has been old equipment, not newly built, equipment which has been rotting away inside of some military facility not even being used. The stuff being sent to Ukraine isn't going to the American people, it was never going to the American people, instead it would have rotted away in some warehouse destined for eventual scrap after already spending hundreds of millions.

2. The amount of aid which America is supplying to Ukraine compared to their total military spending is an absolutely insignificant % and even more so when compared to America's total GDP. America is more than capable of both aiding Ukraine and helping American people, the latter is just a choice.

3. More selfish reasons which should have appealed to Republicans is jobs, the equipment which America does actually manufacture for Ukraine such as artillery will be made in factories inside of America, bringing more jobs to Americans. Ukraine Aid’s Best-Kept Secret: Most of the Money Stays in the U.S.A. - The Washington Post

4. I can't think of a better way to use this, after America has spent hundreds of billions building up its military, precisely because of the threat of Russia and China, to finally put it to use and significantly weaken one of these dictator countries, but now America suddenly has cold feet? What the hell was your military even for? The real truth is that Trump doesn't want to upset his buddy Putin and Republicans follow every word Trump says now.

5. Defeating Russia in Ukraine will deter other imperialist countries from performing their own land grab attempts, when Europe and America show a united front and thoroughly put down Russia. China would have to be insane to attempt the same with Taiwan. However if America gives up on Ukraine, it will give China the perfect battle strategy for taking Taiwan, another ally of America, leading to more wars and let me tell you, the entire world will feel the consequences of a Taiwan war.

6. History. You think Russia will stop at Ukraine if they win? They absolutely won't, Georgia and Moldova will likely be next, more people will die, more wars will happen, European stability will break down and the global ramifications of all these wars will affect Americans. People think sticking their heads in the sand and trying to ignore an aggressive country is the way to stop wars. Wrong. That just encourages the aggressor country to further expand because it believes nobody will stand up to them. America may think it's safe over the ocean, but nothing is impossible when a dictator like Putin becomes overly confident in his abilities and underestimates everyone else's.

7. Your European allies. I imagine you'll say that Ukraine is not an ally of America but many European countries are, or, we are suppose to be, and European countries are very much asking America to help us, we need America's help and many in Europe are quite rightfully scared of Russia's aggression, if America wants to spit in its European allies faces because "it ain't their concern" and especially their eastern European allies then very well, I'd hope Europe would finally say "f*ck America" and I'd hope UK would be right there behind them and further align themselves with EU when America shows itself as once again an unreliable ally. And when America abandons Europe, it will further push them into China's hands, weakening America on the global stage when their allies realise America isn't a true ally.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 08 February 2024

Ryuu96 said:
Shtinamin_ said:


May I ask why you (also for anyone too) think America needs to provide Ukraine with more funds?

There should be no other reason other than simply doing the right thing, for the betterment of the human species, standing up to fascists around the world, but I understand humanity is full of selfish people so for more reasons...

1. The vast majority of equipment which America has been sending to Ukraine has been old equipment, not newly built, equipment which has been rotting away inside of some military facility not even being used. The stuff being sent to Ukraine isn't going to the American people, it was never going to the American people, instead it would have rotted away in some warehouse destined for eventual scrap after already spending hundreds of millions.

2. The amount of aid which America is supplying to Ukraine compared to their total military spending is an absolutely insignificant % and even more so when compared to America's total GDP. America is more than capable of both aiding Ukraine and helping American people, the latter is just a choice.

3. More selfish reasons which should have appealed to Republicans is jobs, the equipment which America does actually manufacture for Ukraine such as artillery will be made in factories inside of America, bringing more jobs to Americans. Ukraine Aid’s Best-Kept Secret: Most of the Money Stays in the U.S.A. - The Washington Post

4. I can't think of a better way to use this, after America has spent hundreds of billions building up its military, precisely because of the threat of Russia and China, to finally put it to use and significantly weaken one of these dictator countries, but now America suddenly has cold feet? What the hell was your military even for? The real truth is that Trump doesn't want to upset his buddy Putin and Republicans follow every word Trump says now.

5. Defeating Russia in Ukraine will deter other imperialist countries from performing their own land grab attempts, when Europe and America show a united front and thoroughly put down Russia. China would have to be insane to attempt the same with Taiwan. However if America gives up on Ukraine, it will give China the perfect battle strategy for taking Taiwan, another ally of America, leading to more wars and let me tell you, the entire world will feel the consequences of a Taiwan war.

6. History. You think Russia will stop at Ukraine if they win? They absolutely won't, Georgia and Moldova will likely be next, more people will die, more wars will happen, European stability will break down and the global ramifications of all these wars will affect Americans. People think sticking their heads in the sand and trying to ignore an aggressive country is the way to stop wars. Wrong. That just encourages the aggressor country to further expand because it believes nobody will stand up to them. America may think it's safe over the ocean, but nothing is impossible when a dictator like Putin becomes overly confident in his abilities and underestimates everyone else's.

7. Your European allies? I imagine you'll say that Ukraine is not an ally of America but Europe is, or, we are suppose to be, and Europe is very much asking America to help us, we need America's help and many in Europe are quite rightfully scared of Russia's aggression, you want to spit in your allies faces, especially eastern Europe? Then fuck America and as a Brit I would hope that UK says fuck America too and further aligns themselves with EU.

Cool, I like your points.
Except the end of 7. That seemed to be personal for you. I don't see a reason to put it in.
Thank you for your answer, ir shows great depth of research.

How come NATO wouldn't let Ukraine in? Are the leaders in NATO not ready for an all out war with Russia, China and North Korea? Or is there an underlying reason?



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