1.) You said "Democrats and most leftists" - what percentage of the country do you think that is? 

2.) There's no evidence here of a "conspiracy to deceive" across all of these people. A lot of people are just going to be in denial of something (especially something complicated like mental health), that's not the same thing as knowing something definitively and lying about it. Nuance. 

Thanks SvennoJ.

I'll take that as a gesture of goodwill.  Here are a few of the key MAGA folks going after Trump for breaking his Epstein files promise:

Tim Pool: https://youtu.be/NLx8iKF15ug?si=kCOObuAe_Jbx3WhG 
Doug Wilson: https://youtu.be/XwWFnuls814?si=Afsb2t0mkyAD8byF
Alex Jones: https://youtu.be/29AniQj3TGw?si=LlBFl5EI7LW7pVI

It unfortunately shows that there a few folks here, like pi guy, who don't have any exposure to people who think differently than they do in their lives.  It's a shame because they would find, if they engaged with others, that the MAGA electoral alliance isn't a uniform cult. (to paraphrase pi guy: not 50% of the country is in on Trumpism just because they voted for him)

It's dishonest to suggest, as pi guy did, that the right is not self-assessing.  The evidence is pretty clear if you just look at how Congress has behaved during the last 20 years:

Republicans tolerate dissenting voices like Rand Paul, Chris Christie, and Mitt Romney.

Democrats, in contrast, have a track record recently of expelling those who don't pass the purity test: Tulsi Gabbard, RFK Jr, and John Fetterman (in-progress, admittedly).

Sadly you failed the test pi guy.  At least SvennoJ had the dignity and integrity to engaged on this one honestly so I've posted the links anyway.

Be a better man next time!

I said two examples, I was talking about two scenarios, not two people who changed their mind. I specifically said two, because the Epstein situation is 1. 

Yes, Republicans are so tolerant of dissenting voices, like calling Democrats pedophiles, terrorists. 

They've never called people RINOs, like the way that Democrats talk about John Fetterman. 

All I'll say pi guy before I end the night is that you have no idea how good you've got it or the inheritance you've received from the US's legal and cultural history. 

I don't know if you were born here or not, but I've experienced the leftism which you clearly admire first-hand: the lies, the manipulation, the poverty and yes, the murders.  

You cry wounded cat regularly here and demand others support their positions with citations or links but you can't seem to measure up to your own standard, let alone the expectation that the US shoulders on its citizens to, as Ben Franklin put it, keep the republic.  How many Chinese, North Korean, European, South American and Caribbean residents would risk life and limb to have the experience you enjoy tonight as you selectively look to score political points and dismantle the system that millions in the rest of the world envy?

It's not perfect, especially in light of the erosions which occurred post-Woodrow Wilson, but it's definitely not worth discarding. 

Again, do yourself and your fellow Americans a favor and start asking folks who voted for Trump what they see their aim as and those from other parts of the world why they're clamoring to get here.  In closing, I'll borrow a favorite leftist line: educate yourself.

No, I know exactly how good I have it. Which is why I'm frustrated with conservatives tearing it down.  

Leftism is not some singular thing. 

A lot of the things that you associate with leftism, are a general problem with authoritarianism. Which I am strongly opposed to.  

Nuance, there's a difference between different groups of left wingers, different groups of right wingers, etc.  

Some left wingers will argue that all of your examples of left wing are actually right wing, because there are still hierarchies in place. 

People disagree on what these words mean, even when they claim to be on the same side of the aisle.  

Uh, I did provide citations. I threw in 3 links about the white house covering up Biden's decline before Svennoj did.  

But I also don't have this illusion that I'm perfect or that the tens of millions of American left wingers are all somehow perfect.  

A lot of them are scumbags who would happily give up their principles for convenience, or on the other end of it would happily let the world rot if they thought it meant they kept to their principles. 

Fewer and fewer people are trying to get here as time goes on.

Where I did say anything about discarding it? You're being dishonest here.  

I do. It's why I waste so much time trying to have these conversations. 

Even when people are clearly not trying to have conversations in good faith.

Or for whatever reason they're not capable of making meaningful distinctions. I try to make meaningful distinctions between someone who lies to benefit themselves, someone who is in denial - someone who genuinely believes the false things they're saying, someone who makes a genuine mistake. 

I would say those are all different things, even if on the surface - they each said something that was false - all looks the same.  

Just like I think you should be able to look at 10 supposedly left wing countries, and determine the actual differences. Are they actually doing a good job of espousing left wing principles? Could a different left wing system work better? 

Having those nuanced discussions is an important part of educating oneself. So far, your history here tells me that you're either uninterested in having those more complicated discussions or you are incapable.  

I would love to see you prove me wrong on that.

Im sure that even though people often don't see eye to eye, we underestimated that we have to put the safety of children above politics. A society that wont defend its own children is doomed.

Also for my American citizens please remember that we define what it means to be American, not a single politician.

I want all the people who preyed on children to be brought to justice. Doesn't matter who they are.

As a society we have a responsibility to ourselves to maintain a standard of decency.

Would hate to burst your bubble, but…

Let's take another look then: https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9597930

It's right there. You said that Southern leaders used their desire to uphold slavery as a moral cause to get Southerners to sign up for their military. There's no ambiguity here.

You have no ground to stand on to begin with, so you are indeed better off by saving yourself the time.

The Republican party is divided over Trump's policies, plenty articles about a split in the GOP. Same for the Democrats.

Just some recent examples
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/shutdown-showdown-leaves-democrats-deeply-divided-politics-desk-rcna196545
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/16/us/politics/republican-divide-spending-debt.html

All that tells me is that the 2 party system isn't working anymore (if it ever really did). Republicans and Democrats have only entranced themselves more and more as polar opposites (while they're both being ruled by the billionaire class) but as an outsider most of it feels for show. Where the Republicans use immigration as a scare tactic, Democrats use abortion and trans rights. Both are good issues, however the real problems go unaddressed. Both are distracting from the destruction of the working/middle class which has been going on since the 1980s.   

It doesn't feel like Americans have a real choice in politics, both options are bad. Both parties need to be split and start listening to their actual bases. (And held to account for their party promises) 

Now it does seem Republicans fall in line more when it comes to voting while Democrats are more divided in votes but otherwise Republicans seem to be divided all the same. 



And now I find it the utmost hypocrisy how both sides are all over the Epstein files for child rape while both continue to support the killing of 17,000 children (so far) and maiming another 30,000+ while deliberately starving the rest (about 80 so far died of starvation). 

Yes, the Epstein files need to be released, heck they might even shed some light on the Gaza genocide support / unwillingness to do something. (Some rumors about Mossad involvement with Epstein which all seem to link back to Tucker Carlson) However the urgency is over 2 million people getting deliberately starved to test how far international law can be pushed.