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Forums - Politics Discussion - Shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas (19 Students, 2 Teachers Dead)

Owning deadly weapons that are capable of killing dozens of people within a matter of minutes should not be a basic right under any circumstances.
Any and all automatic and semi-automatic guns should be completely banned from being purchased by civilians.

But that's never gonna happen because some people aren't capable of logical thought and don't care about children's lives.



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RolStoppable said:

I've thought about this idea of arming more people in order to prevent mass shootings or end them faster if they begin to occur. This is a point that may require doing some extensive research, but actually, it doesn't require it at all. Because if there had ever been an American hero who pulled his gun and killed a nutjob who was about to go on a killing spree, then all the republicans wouldn't be able to stop talking about him and would cite that incident every time the debate concerning gun laws comes back into the focus of national attention.

I'm not advocating for randomly arming people as the solution, but want to point out that Republicans and the pro-gun right-wing do bring up examples like this all of the time when the discussion moves in that direction. 

This is an example Texans, for example, might mention. 

https://www.kxan.com/texas-mass-violence/do-good-guys-with-guns-stop-mass-shootings-heres-what-the-statistics-say/

"Wilson is a member of the church’s volunteer security team. The team noticed the shooter when he first entered the building wearing a long, three-quarter length coat, fake beard, wig and a toboggan.

It was just moments later that Wilson fired his gun, striking the man in the head.

“By that time, when I got over there to cover him, there was five, maybe six other individuals on the security team that already had their guns out, drawn on him too,” says Wilson. “The individual did not make any attempt to get up because of his head wound. He didn’t make any… it was just quivering and that was it.”

It is important to note though that article, when they looked at the data, generally, says: 

"According to the data, citizens stopped shooters 50 times in the 316 attacks. But in only 10 out of those 50 incidents did citizens actually stop the shooter by using a gun. The other 40 times, it was with their hands or another weapon"

That is probably why it isn't brought up by them aggressively. That's only 3% of potential or successful shootings being prevented and only 20% of those that were prevented by persons stopping the shooter, being stopped with the use of guns. 

But yeah, among their circles and peers this is a common narrative. They don't need to convince people who don't already vote Republican so they don't bring it up in general discourse, but they do bring up stories like this to convince other Republicans to keep their position. 



The U.S. is basically screwed beyond compare regarding gun violence. Could you introduce some constitutional restrictions that will reduce gun violence? Sure, and we should.
But the U.S. will always be well above other countries in gun violence because there are so many guns here already that banning the more war-like ones or instituting buybacks is not a full-proof solution. There are well over 300 million guns in America. The best-case scenario for gun violence reduction in America is roughly halfing it over time.
I do not support the U.S. ever getting as restrictive as the UK or Japan because that would be an immense failure and would probably be unconstitutional. Even with more gun control, the U.S. would probably not even get as restrictive as Canada (which is one of the countries with the most gun rights in the world).



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sc94597 said:
RolStoppable said:

I've thought about this idea of arming more people in order to prevent mass shootings or end them faster if they begin to occur. This is a point that may require doing some extensive research, but actually, it doesn't require it at all. Because if there had ever been an American hero who pulled his gun and killed a nutjob who was about to go on a killing spree, then all the republicans wouldn't be able to stop talking about him and would cite that incident every time the debate concerning gun laws comes back into the focus of national attention.

I'm not advocating for randomly arming people as the solution, but want to point out that Republicans and the pro-gun right-wing do bring up examples like this all of the time when the discussion moves in that direction. 

This is an example Texans, for example, might mention. 

https://www.kxan.com/texas-mass-violence/do-good-guys-with-guns-stop-mass-shootings-heres-what-the-statistics-say/

"Wilson is a member of the church’s volunteer security team. The team noticed the shooter when he first entered the building wearing a long, three-quarter length coat, fake beard, wig and a toboggan.

It was just moments later that Wilson fired his gun, striking the man in the head.

“By that time, when I got over there to cover him, there was five, maybe six other individuals on the security team that already had their guns out, drawn on him too,” says Wilson. “The individual did not make any attempt to get up because of his head wound. He didn’t make any… it was just quivering and that was it.”

It is important to note though that article, when they looked at the data, generally, says: 

"According to the data, citizens stopped shooters 50 times in the 316 attacks. But in only 10 out of those 50 incidents did citizens actually stop the shooter by using a gun. The other 40 times, it was with their hands or another weapon"

That is probably why it isn't brought up by them aggressively. That's only 3% of potential or successful shootings being prevented and only 20% of those that were prevented by persons stopping the shooter, being stopped with the use of guns. 

But yeah, among their circles and peers this is a common narrative. They don't need to convince people who don't already vote Republican so they don't bring it up in general discourse, but they do bring up stories like this to convince other Republicans to keep their position. 

How many incidents out of the 316 were the people armed? 10?



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cyberninja45 said:
sundin13 said:

So your just planning on endlessly stonewalling while kids die because your hyper-specific questions don't have perfect answers?

Cool.

Cool.

What?

How are gonna make change you want if you can't persuade people?

Persuade? Death of many school kids should be enough you would think? I am sure most have their own kids, which is crazy that they can't relate.

Perhaps this may sound harsh, but as the old saying goes walk a mile in someone else's shoes, should apply to these people that don't want to listen.

Therefore I propose, shoot one of their kids in front of them (with blanks not actual kill), then see how they feel about guns.

Or maybe stage a fake school shooting at every school so these idiots know what it feels like to fear the loss of a child by rushing over to the school in panic. 

Sounds like stupid people need radical stupid solutions to let things sink in.



 

 

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Chris Hu said:

The parents of the victims need to sue the city, the school, the police department, the county and the state for the slow response time. That way at least something will chance eventually on a local or state-wide level.

It isn't as easy as it sounds. Half these cops wouldn't have that level of skill or mental ability to handle such a situation, hence why they have specialised units for these events. They also focused on getting kids out of other classrooms.

Once the guy locked himself in one room everyone in that room was pretty much dead and wounded, it was better to wait it out and ensure other students were safe first in case he decide to go for another round to other rooms. If they rushed that room they would have just been shot up in the heat of the moment as he was body armoured up.



 

 

Cobretti2 said:
Chris Hu said:

The parents of the victims need to sue the city, the school, the police department, the county and the state for the slow response time. That way at least something will chance eventually on a local or state-wide level.

It isn't as easy as it sounds. Half these cops wouldn't have that level of skill or mental ability to handle such a situation, hence why they have specialised units for these events. They also focused on getting kids out of other classrooms.

Once the guy locked himself in one room everyone in that room was pretty much dead and wounded, it was better to wait it out and ensure other students were safe first in case he decide to go for another round to other rooms. If they rushed that room they would have just been shot up in the heat of the moment as he was body armoured up.

The 19 cops outside of that classroom were S.W.A.T, a specialized unit that has been militarized since 9/11. A few of them were also reported to be border control, another militarized unit. 

There is no apologizing for the police here. It wasn't better. There were children calling 911 in that classroom as that officer made that decision. 

Body armor isn't magic, which is why he was shot after border patrol eventually ignored the order to not enter the classroom. 

The lengths people go to apologize for police. Sigh.

Last edited by sc94597 - on 29 May 2022

sc94597 said:

The lengths people go to apologize for police. Sigh.

Incompetence in one single picture.

You NEVER show the faces of the members of a special (kill-)team.



drkohler said:
sc94597 said:

Incompetence in one single picture.

You NEVER show the faces of the members of a special (kill-)team.

Yeah they self-doxxed themselves on their Facebook page. Although in the information era we live in and the fact that most police forces have public payrolls, it wouldn't be hard to find their faces independently of their self-doxxing. 



sc94597 said:
Cobretti2 said:

It isn't as easy as it sounds. Half these cops wouldn't have that level of skill or mental ability to handle such a situation, hence why they have specialised units for these events. They also focused on getting kids out of other classrooms.

Once the guy locked himself in one room everyone in that room was pretty much dead and wounded, it was better to wait it out and ensure other students were safe first in case he decide to go for another round to other rooms. If they rushed that room they would have just been shot up in the heat of the moment as he was body armoured up.

The 19 cops outside of that classroom were S.W.A.T, a specialized unit that has been militarized since 9/11. A few of them were also reported to be border control, another militarized unit. 

There is no apologizing for the police here. It wasn't better. There were children calling 911 in that classroom as that officer made that decision. 

Body armor isn't magic, which is why he was shot after border patrol eventually ignored the order to not enter the classroom. 

The lengths people go to apologize for police. Sigh.

The footage they showed in Australia was just regular cops, 5 of them that was it when they were stopping parents.

They made it sound like the SWAT team come in later.