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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

SecondWar said:
Ryuu96 said:

Maybe I'll regret this but at least you can count on a lot of right-wing parties in Europe to not bend over backwards to Russia unlike the Republicans of today. It's quite a stark difference between the Conservative Party in the UK, one of Ukraine's strongest supporters, versus Trump. Italy's Meloni, is considered pretty damn right wing but still supports Ukraine. Poland's PiS is considered right-wing but were very strong supporters of Ukraine. Even outside of Europe, Japan is pretty Conservative but also supports Ukraine. ANO in Czech Republic is Centre-Right. I believe Latvia and Lithuania are Conservative too. Even fucking Erdogan supports Ukraine quite a bit and he's a piece of shit.

There's exceptions like Hungary but for the most part support for Ukraine has been a bipartisan issue, of course there's also the threat of AfD in Germany and National Rally in France as well who are pretty damn pro-Russian right wing parties but it's unlikely they achieve enough power to govern on their own and entering into a coalition without supporting Ukraine is a dealbreaker for most. I believe we seen this recently with Netherlands, Geert Wilders is pro-Russian but couldn't form a government with right-wing parties without making concessions and one of those has been on Ukraine.

But America...Yeah.

Republicans are that far fucking gone that I'm defending the Tories!!!

Depends on the party and thr leader. Garage and Reform would back Russia. And the Tories are moving further right so their position can't be guaranteed. I still suspect Farage will attempt a reverse takeover of the Tories before the next GE.

Kemi won't last the full 4 years, Lol. If one there's one thing I can give Tories credit for it's their ability to fucking backstab each other the single moment something is going wrong, Lol. I really don't believe moving further right will work with UK's voters and Reform has too few MPs to be relevant in any way. Still a lot of Tories support Ukraine too, maybe they'll be influenced by America...But I'll keep the faith that they won't. It's not like it's easy for Republicans to boot their own leader out but for Tories it's just another Tuesday. PMs have a lot less power over their party than Presidents do. 

I also sort of expect Reform will collapse by next election, I do believe a large part of them were Tory protest voters sick of the Tories and now that they've made their voice heard they will come back to Tories next election. There's always a chance for Lib Dems to grow even more as well as the other "protest vote" which is what sort of happened last election too. Happened to UKIP too, though not in quite as big numbers as Reform but people panicking over their growth only for them to quickly become irrelevant again, I mean shit it happened to Lib Dems not too long ago, Lol.

I do want to believe that most Brits are centrists, but if Labour doesn't fix the economy in 4 years then there's a risk that Reform grow, but I feel like it's just as likely a bunch of people stupidly go back to Tories, Lol. This country basically has a two party system and people will see how useless it is to vote for Reform considering how few seats they get, and also how Reform are fucking useless themselves, Farage spends more time in America than his own constituency, and they'll go scurrying back to Tories who will promise fixing the economy.

But Keir better get his ass in gear and stop that from happening. He has 4 years.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 06 November 2024

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Ryuu96 said:

I do want to believe that most Brits are centrists, but if Labour doesn't fix the economy in 4 years then there's a risk that Reform grow, but I feel like it's just as likely a bunch of people stupidly go back to Tories, Lol. This country basically has a two party system and people will see how useless it is to vote for Reform considering how few seats they get, and also how Reform are fucking useless themselves, Farage spends more time in America than his own constituency, and they'll go scurrying back to Tories who will promise fixing the economy.

But Keir better get his ass in gear and stop that from happening. He has 4 years.

On my island we are (IoM), as well as being multi-cultural (the only right leaning folks we have are the leftover boomers and some Gen X). I don't trust labour to fix the issues, mainly because they didn't really fix the Tories last few blunders back in 2010 and even after that. They say they'll make good changes or reverse the bad legislations and try to reform, but they just cannot decide on what to work with first and seeing it through to it's end (remember Ed Miliband and how he went about his tenure?, same with Gordon Brown).

The problem is, Labour is just spent/acting like a headless chicken, while Tories have all the connections and the money to wait it out each tenure. 



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Chazore said:
Ryuu96 said:

I do want to believe that most Brits are centrists, but if Labour doesn't fix the economy in 4 years then there's a risk that Reform grow, but I feel like it's just as likely a bunch of people stupidly go back to Tories, Lol. This country basically has a two party system and people will see how useless it is to vote for Reform considering how few seats they get, and also how Reform are fucking useless themselves, Farage spends more time in America than his own constituency, and they'll go scurrying back to Tories who will promise fixing the economy.

But Keir better get his ass in gear and stop that from happening. He has 4 years.

On my island we are (IoM), as well as being multi-cultural (the only right leaning folks we have are the leftover boomers and some Gen X). I don't trust labour to fix the issues, mainly because they didn't really fix the Tories last few blunders back in 2010 and even after that. They say they'll make good changes or reverse the bad legislations and try to reform, but they just cannot decide on what to work with first and seeing it through to it's end (remember Ed Miliband and how he went about his tenure?, same with Gordon Brown).

The problem is, Labour is just spent/acting like a headless chicken, while Tories have all the connections and the money to wait it out each tenure. 

I fear even if they know what they're doing 4 years won't be enough, it'd be wild though that Tories can spend 14 years screwing up the economy but Labour only gets given 4 to fix it, Lol. I know that's what is likely to happen though! Keir should also realise that a large part of this was a protest vote against Tories and voters can easily swing back to Tories.

I'm going to remain open-minded for now, it's all I have left, Lol. I'll see where we are in 2 years from now, not for like "oh everything is fixed!" but a notable steady line of improvement will be good for me, it's going to take a lot to undo the shitshow the UK is in right now.



The president of Germany's Christian Democratic Union deplores the European Union's constant hesitation in providing aid to Ukraine, and criticizes it for failing to distance itself sufficiently from the Americans.

CDU President Friedrich Merz: 'European foreign and security policy is in a desolate state'



Ryuu96 said:

I fear even if they know what they're doing 4 years won't be enough, it'd be wild though that Tories can spend 14 years screwing up the economy but Labour only gets given 4 to fix it, Lol. I know that's what is likely to happen though! Keir should also realise that a large part of this was a protest vote against Tories and voters can easily swing back to Tories.

I'm going to remain open-minded for now, it's all I have left, Lol. I'll see where we are in 2 years from now, not for like "oh everything is fixed!" but a notable steady line of improvement will be good for me, it's going to take a lot to undo the shitshow the UK is in right now.

Exactly, that's why I feel like it's a losing game. Expecting any party to fix a near decade and a half of mistakes and doing it in less than 4 is just not realistic. At best it could take up to 8yrs (two tenures), but we know chances of getting 2 terms would be slim, since it can lopside at any given time.

Right now the steering wheel of the ship to reform is stuck in the opposite direction and held together by steel rope welded to the mast.

The UK really does need to actually list out it's core issues that need reformations made first. The lesser ones to sort out later, instead of pulling a Gordon Brown and just going all "uhh uhh, I'll sort this one, no wait, THAT ONE!", and getting nothing done. 



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Relevant though.





You guys should chill out a bit. As much as I loathe and distrust Trump, he's also way more speech than action, even if he's also action. I have significant worries myself, and Ukraine certainly won't be doing better, but it might also not be as bad as you expect. Trump can't end the war quickly unless he's actually ready for action as well if needed, and I'm sure he knows that, which leads me to think his voters don't really care about what he does about Ukraine all that much.



Zkuq said:

You guys should chill out a bit. As much as I loathe and distrust Trump, he's also way more speech than action, even if he's also action. I have significant worries myself, and Ukraine certainly won't be doing better, but it might also not be as bad as you expect. Trump can't end the war quickly unless he's actually ready for action as well if needed, and I'm sure he knows that, which leads me to think his voters don't really care about what he does about Ukraine all that much.

Maybe, but then he has told Orban (privately) that he would cut off aid to Ukraine. He has surrounded himself with anti-Ukraine voices (JD Vance, Elon Musk, JFK Jr) and spent lengthy parts of his rallies talking shit about Ukraine and Zelenskyy. I feel the only way for Ukraine is to somehow play massively to Trump's ego and hope that works which they are already doing. Also Trump holds a vendetta against Ukraine/Zelenskyy.

Maybe sell Trump that he could be the hero of Ukraine and build some fucking hotels there and a statue of Trump or some stupid shit after the war, Lol. Or more seriously, sell America something that Trump can benefit from, like drilling rigs or a few of their rare mineral mining operations. Sickening to imagine Zelenskyy is going to have to basically get on his hands and knees for Trump to help.

Would rather UK stepped up and gave America something than Ukraine though. Europe needs to massively step up on their own terms but I'd be fine with Keir trying to convince Trump, isn't that what UK has always been? The go-between America and Europe. Maybe Trump will listen to us, maybe not. Worth a try and while we're trying we need to work on becoming independent of America because still fuck them.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 06 November 2024

Ryuu96 said:
Zkuq said:

You guys should chill out a bit. As much as I loathe and distrust Trump, he's also way more speech than action, even if he's also action. I have significant worries myself, and Ukraine certainly won't be doing better, but it might also not be as bad as you expect. Trump can't end the war quickly unless he's actually ready for action as well if needed, and I'm sure he knows that, which leads me to think his voters don't really care about what he does about Ukraine all that much.

Maybe, but then he has told Orban (privately) that he would cut off aid to Ukraine. He has surrounded himself with anti-Ukraine voices (JD Vance, Elon Musk, JFK Jr) and spent lengthy parts of his rallies talking shit about Ukraine and Zelenskyy. I feel the only way for Ukraine is to somehow play massively to Trump's ego and hope that works which they are already doing. Also Trump holds a vendetta against Ukraine/Zelenskyy.

Maybe sell Trump that he could be the hero of Ukraine and build some fucking hotels there or some stupid shit after the war, Lol. Or more seriously, sell America something that Trump can benefit from, like drilling rigs or a few of their rare mineral mining operations. Sickening to imagine Zelenskyy is going to have to basically get on his hands and knees for Trump to help.

Would rather UK stepped up and gave America something than Ukraine though. Europe needs to massively step up on their own terms but I'd be fine with Keir trying to convince Trump, isn't that what UK has always been? The go-between America and Europe. Maybe Trump will listen to us, maybe not. Worth a try and while we're trying we need to work on becoming independent of America.

Yeah, but I don't think Ukraine is just going to surrender if Trump cuts off all aid from the US. Maybe Ukraine won't fight until the bitter end, but it certainly seems like they've got some juice to make it costly for Russia. I just don't see Zelenskyy, or anyone else, giving up now while they can still fight, struggle as it might be. The Ukrainian people might be willing to make peace, even at cost, but I don't they're at all ready to essentially surrender. Trump would have to make both parties an offer they think they can't best for a quick peace (i.e. something involving de facto independence for Ukraine even in the future if they make peace, and probably much worse time for Russia if they refuse), and I don't think he's committed enough for that.