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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

Seems like Biden is going to be depleting the funds before he's out of office.



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"hundreds of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, and thousands of additional armored vehicles…"

More Bradley's Pls.



High ranking Russian officer was the unfortunate victim of a clandestine hit

https://odessa-journal.com/in-the-moscow-region-a-high-ranking-gru-officer-was-shot-at-close-range



Ryuu96 said:

Why do I get the feeling Scholz is going to attempt to throw Ukraine under the bus, I know he says no decisions about Ukraine's fate without the consent of Ukrainians but it just feels weird how much I'm hearing lately about Germany trying to talk to Putin, any talks with Putin should have Zelenskyy included, unless Ukraine gives permission for a country to talk to Putin about what happens in Ukraine. If Ukraine doesn't give such permission or isn't involved in the talks then it's a waste of time, it's not up to Germany what happens in Ukraine.

What I feel like lately is Europe is waiting on the US Election and that will decide what happens, if Trump wins I just have the horrible feeling that Europe is going to piss itself and throw Ukraine under the bus, likely try to force Ukraine to accept defeat and shitty concessions, to the rage of Eastern Europe. But maybe I'm just too cynical lately. 

Europe knows that if Ukraine falls, that Russia will be not only more aggressive, but even closer and in the larger countries faces so to speak.  They can't let ukraine lose.  Now, Russia has done very well with buying off individual politicians but they can't sway the majority.  What about the example of orban?  The hungarians hate him for kowtowing to russia.  So the influence that russia has can only go so far.  



a few months ago i was thinking that Russia might have 700K casualties by the end of the year, but now it is looking like they may have 750K by then.  Keep pushing Ukraine.

Last edited by shavenferret - 21 hours ago

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"There are two choices. Or Ukraine will have nuclear weapons, or we should have some kind of alliance, and apart from NATO we do not know any functioning alliances today. We want to choose NATO, not nuclear weapons."

He added that the Budapest Memorandum failed, and Ukraine is the only one affected by it.

"If Russia violated this document, although it is and was the guarantor of this memorandum, then how can we believe in this document? And how can we trust all the partners who guaranteed the preservation of our territorial integrity and sovereignty? These were not only agreements between Ukraine and Russia, but between Ukraine and all partners. Which of these great countries, of all the nuclear powers, are affected? All? No, just one. Ukraine. Who gave away the nuclear weapons? All? No, just one. Ukraine. And who is fighting right now? All? No, just one. Ukraine."



Totally fair, I can't really argue against his logic and only a few years before this war I was pro removing as many nukes as possible from the world but I was naïve. Now we're in a situation where nukes are a double edged sword because those with nukes have a safety blanket but those with nukes can seemingly do whatever the fuck they want to countries without nukes because countries are too afraid of those with nukes.

Ukraine already had a paper agreement with Russia and America, security guarantees in exchange for surrendering their nukes, where did that get them? Russia, one of the signatures, invading them and America, the other signature, not doing anywhere near as much as it could for Ukraine's "security" is Ukraine secure right now? Absolutely not. The paper was worthless, security agreements are worthless if not enforced.

There's no better defensive pact in the world than NATO and outside of that, there's no better deterrent in the world than nukes. It's sad, but it's where we're at now. If Ukraine can't get into NATO then Ukraine should have nukes, though I'd take it a step further because I no longer trust America/UK/France to defend Eastern Europe, I'd say that Poland should also acquire nukes and enter into a share agreement with Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia...Maybe even South Korea should acquire its own nukes too, America and Western Europe are showing themselves to be fearful allies.



Ryuu96 said:

"There are two choices. Or Ukraine will have nuclear weapons, or we should have some kind of alliance, and apart from NATO we do not know any functioning alliances today. We want to choose NATO, not nuclear weapons."

He added that the Budapest Memorandum failed, and Ukraine is the only one affected by it.

"If Russia violated this document, although it is and was the guarantor of this memorandum, then how can we believe in this document? And how can we trust all the partners who guaranteed the preservation of our territorial integrity and sovereignty? These were not only agreements between Ukraine and Russia, but between Ukraine and all partners. Which of these great countries, of all the nuclear powers, are affected? All? No, just one. Ukraine. Who gave away the nuclear weapons? All? No, just one. Ukraine. And who is fighting right now? All? No, just one. Ukraine."

I don't like this.  Zelensky is trying to speed up the process of being included into NATO by saying that they would otherwise develop nuclear weapons.  All Russia would have to do is to shoot a missle at the enrichment facility, and it would become a giant dirty bomb that has nuclear material spread all over the place from force of weapon.  This is a war, not a good idea to start developing nuclear weapons now.  



shavenferret said:
Ryuu96 said:

"There are two choices. Or Ukraine will have nuclear weapons, or we should have some kind of alliance, and apart from NATO we do not know any functioning alliances today. We want to choose NATO, not nuclear weapons."

He added that the Budapest Memorandum failed, and Ukraine is the only one affected by it.

"If Russia violated this document, although it is and was the guarantor of this memorandum, then how can we believe in this document? And how can we trust all the partners who guaranteed the preservation of our territorial integrity and sovereignty? These were not only agreements between Ukraine and Russia, but between Ukraine and all partners. Which of these great countries, of all the nuclear powers, are affected? All? No, just one. Ukraine. Who gave away the nuclear weapons? All? No, just one. Ukraine. And who is fighting right now? All? No, just one. Ukraine."

I don't like this.  Zelensky is trying to speed up the process of being included into NATO by saying that they would otherwise develop nuclear weapons.  All Russia would have to do is to shoot a missle at the enrichment facility, and it would become a giant dirty bomb that has nuclear material spread all over the place from force of weapon.  This is a war, not a good idea to start developing nuclear weapons now.  

Ukraine has been waiting to join NATO for 16 years now.

But I think you're reading this wrong, this is what he told Donald Trump, not the NATO Secretary General or Biden. He is saying to Trump that Ukraine wants to choose NATO but if they aren't allowed to join NATO (something which Trump is very clearly against) then they will be forced to develop their own nuclear weapons for deterrence. He is pointing out (to Trump) that they also already had a security agreement with Russia and America in the past to surrender their nukes in exchange for shitty security guarantees which were worthless. If Trump cares for nuclear disarmament then Zelenskyy puts him in a position of choosing between Ukraine in NATO or more nukes in the world. 

End of the day, it isn't America's decision whether Ukraine has nukes or not either, if Ukraine is not allowed into NATO then they absolutely should acquire nukes because "security agreements" with individual countries have proven to Ukraine in the past to be absolutely worthless and do not provide Ukraine with "security" Zelenskyy isn't saying however that Ukraine is going to start developing nukes tomorrow, next week, even next year...Ukraine is asking for an invitation to NATO, even that isn't an immediate "You're now in NATO" but years of work. Anyway, if Ukraine were to develop nukes and hypothetically Russia bombed it and it spread over Poland, then the only one to blame would be the one firing the missile at the country they're illegally invading and I think if such a scenario happened, Poland would be sending troops straight into Ukraine.