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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

Nuvendil said:

So I don't think Elon is anti-Ukraine. He's just another armchair "expert" spooked by the big numbers thrown around regarding Russia's military. He like others simply fails to realize those numbers don't matter, what matters is what they have the capacity to field and Russia can only effectively field a small fraction of their theoretical strength. Truth of the matter is, what they have fielded is probably near the max they can field effectively. They just do not have the economic, industrial, or logistical capacity to field anywhere near their full theoretical strength. Now they've had time to build up infrastructure in occupied regions to bulster that, but Ukraine is doing a lot of damage there so it likely won't matter much longer in most of the occupied regions.

But that aside, fact is the possibility of Russia getting major concessions from Ukraine died months ago. They probably could have gotten a fair bit in March or April when Ukraine was still on the backfoot and international support was still forming. But now? Not only has Ukraine's victories emboldened their people and Russia's conduct enraged them, Russia's losses and dysfuction have severely damaged their reputation as a major power and power broker. Add on that that no one trusts Russia and that outcome becomes a clear political impossibility.

But Elon is right about one thing: for this to end, both sides will likely have to back down from their maximalist demands. Russia has no chance of fully controlling through regime change or occupation all of Ukraine. They have recognized this and scaled back, but even their new goals are proving a stretch. For Ukraine, it's lovely to dream of deposing Putin, trying half the miltary bureaucracy for War Crimes, demilitarizing Russia, and confiscating their nuclear arsenal, but that's just not realistic. No nation has been compelled to accept a treaty so harsh in nearly 80 years. And that only happened at the literal barrel of a gun, with Germany and Japan thoroughly defeated and facing eminent total defeat and occupation anyway. Ukraine doesn't have the capacity to do that to Russia, even with western assistance. The only way that has a chance of happening is if Russia implodes from within. Which isn't impossible, the Soviet Union collapsed afterall. And the provisional government of the Russia also collapsed in WWI, largely due to colossal military failures. But that is a long shot.

So there's unlikely to be a nice, clean, "good guys win" end to this. There will be negotiations at some point, the fighting leading up to that will all be about leverage.

On a side note regardin the US support, as of now it is broadly bipartisan and enjoys significant majority support. If things continue as they are, I don't see that changing regardless of the party alignment unless something really wacky happens with the fringe wierdos becoming way more popular nationwide. The two biggest threats aren't the parties or anything like that. It's inflation and feelings regarding NATO contributions. Inflation is one of the very few things that tends to make people sit up and take economic policy and spending seriously for a change. It also tends to turn national concern inward. So support for Ukraine could become collateral damage if inflation is still running hot in 2024. The NATO issue is more about NATO members following through on defense spending. The "free rider" argument that the US does all the defense spending heavy lifting was a common talking point for years. If 2024 rolls around and NATO nations have pumped the breaks on defense spending increases, I could see this creeping back into the discourse despite the unifying effects of the Ukraine conflict. A lot of Americans came to feel over time that NATO leaned too much on the US to be the muscle (somewhat fairly, though the US is the one that chooses to spend so much on defense) and could become antsy if they feel the Ukraine conflict is becoming a predominantly US responsibility.

But honestly that second bit I don't think will be as impactful as the first one. Unless other NATO countries actually do seriously mess up. Again, so long as things progess mostly positively.

But we'll see. Honestly, Russia needs to make it to 2024 first.

What Musk wants is to sell Starlink sets in rural Russia, as there's a big market for him. He already said he wouldn't ban anything in Russia or Russian propaganda channels on western territories. Starlink has already come under fire recently due to slowdowns and not getting close to advertised speeds in some regions anymore, so much that the FCC retracted some funding as the target speed wasn't met. 



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Bofferbrauer2 said:
Nuvendil said:

So I don't think Elon is anti-Ukraine. He's just another armchair "expert" spooked by the big numbers thrown around regarding Russia's military. He like others simply fails to realize those numbers don't matter, what matters is what they have the capacity to field and Russia can only effectively field a small fraction of their theoretical strength. Truth of the matter is, what they have fielded is probably near the max they can field effectively. They just do not have the economic, industrial, or logistical capacity to field anywhere near their full theoretical strength. Now they've had time to build up infrastructure in occupied regions to bulster that, but Ukraine is doing a lot of damage there so it likely won't matter much longer in most of the occupied regions.

But that aside, fact is the possibility of Russia getting major concessions from Ukraine died months ago. They probably could have gotten a fair bit in March or April when Ukraine was still on the backfoot and international support was still forming. But now? Not only has Ukraine's victories emboldened their people and Russia's conduct enraged them, Russia's losses and dysfuction have severely damaged their reputation as a major power and power broker. Add on that that no one trusts Russia and that outcome becomes a clear political impossibility.

But Elon is right about one thing: for this to end, both sides will likely have to back down from their maximalist demands. Russia has no chance of fully controlling through regime change or occupation all of Ukraine. They have recognized this and scaled back, but even their new goals are proving a stretch. For Ukraine, it's lovely to dream of deposing Putin, trying half the miltary bureaucracy for War Crimes, demilitarizing Russia, and confiscating their nuclear arsenal, but that's just not realistic. No nation has been compelled to accept a treaty so harsh in nearly 80 years. And that only happened at the literal barrel of a gun, with Germany and Japan thoroughly defeated and facing eminent total defeat and occupation anyway. Ukraine doesn't have the capacity to do that to Russia, even with western assistance. The only way that has a chance of happening is if Russia implodes from within. Which isn't impossible, the Soviet Union collapsed afterall. And the provisional government of the Russia also collapsed in WWI, largely due to colossal military failures. But that is a long shot.

So there's unlikely to be a nice, clean, "good guys win" end to this. There will be negotiations at some point, the fighting leading up to that will all be about leverage.

On a side note regardin the US support, as of now it is broadly bipartisan and enjoys significant majority support. If things continue as they are, I don't see that changing regardless of the party alignment unless something really wacky happens with the fringe wierdos becoming way more popular nationwide. The two biggest threats aren't the parties or anything like that. It's inflation and feelings regarding NATO contributions. Inflation is one of the very few things that tends to make people sit up and take economic policy and spending seriously for a change. It also tends to turn national concern inward. So support for Ukraine could become collateral damage if inflation is still running hot in 2024. The NATO issue is more about NATO members following through on defense spending. The "free rider" argument that the US does all the defense spending heavy lifting was a common talking point for years. If 2024 rolls around and NATO nations have pumped the breaks on defense spending increases, I could see this creeping back into the discourse despite the unifying effects of the Ukraine conflict. A lot of Americans came to feel over time that NATO leaned too much on the US to be the muscle (somewhat fairly, though the US is the one that chooses to spend so much on defense) and could become antsy if they feel the Ukraine conflict is becoming a predominantly US responsibility.

But honestly that second bit I don't think will be as impactful as the first one. Unless other NATO countries actually do seriously mess up. Again, so long as things progess mostly positively.

But we'll see. Honestly, Russia needs to make it to 2024 first.

What Musk wants is to sell Starlink sets in rural Russia, as there's a big market for him. He already said he wouldn't ban anything in Russia or Russian propaganda channels on western territories. Starlink has already come under fire recently due to slowdowns and not getting close to advertised speeds in some regions anymore, so much that the FCC retracted some funding as the target speed wasn't met. 

The idea that he wants the war to end so he can sell Starlink in a nation whose economy is so weak and where the target demographic most likely can't afford it at all is laughable.  The idea he would do so so that he could try to sell Starlink in a nation that would never in a million years permit it to operate is downright insane.  Cause it's not about not banning Russian stuff, it's about banning or controlling other stuff.  Russia is quite happy with large amounts of their population having limited internet access.

So no, as someone who is not a big fan of Elon, I must say that this conspiracy is downright silly.

Last edited by Nuvendil - on 05 October 2022

Nuvendil said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

What Musk wants is to sell Starlink sets in rural Russia, as there's a big market for him. He already said he wouldn't ban anything in Russia or Russian propaganda channels on western territories. Starlink has already come under fire recently due to slowdowns and not getting close to advertised speeds in some regions anymore, so much that the FCC retracted some funding as the target speed wasn't met. 

The idea that he wants the war to end so he can sell Starlink in a nation whose economy is so weak and where the target demographic most likely can't afford it at all is laughable.  The idea he would do so so that he could try to sell Starlink in a nation that would never in a million years permit it to operate is downright insane.  Cause it's not about not banning Russian stuff, it's about banning or controlling other stuff.  Russia is quite happy with large amounts of their population having limited internet access.

So no, as someone who is not a big fan of Elon, I must say that this conspiracy is downright silly.

He doesn't want the war to end for this, he simply wants to sell starlink, with or without war.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
Nuvendil said:

The idea that he wants the war to end so he can sell Starlink in a nation whose economy is so weak and where the target demographic most likely can't afford it at all is laughable.  The idea he would do so so that he could try to sell Starlink in a nation that would never in a million years permit it to operate is downright insane.  Cause it's not about not banning Russian stuff, it's about banning or controlling other stuff.  Russia is quite happy with large amounts of their population having limited internet access.

So no, as someone who is not a big fan of Elon, I must say that this conspiracy is downright silly.

He doesn't want the war to end for this, he simply wants to sell starlink, with or without war.

Then what was the point of your response?  If he doesn't care either way then why does it matter?  A twitter post won't get him into good graces with the powers that be, especially after he effectively drove Russia almost completely out of the space business in the US (and sparked off a rush of alternative launch providers that are going to squeeze them out of yet more markets over time).  

But that's mostly besides the point, the rest of what I posted is more relevant to actual discussions of the war and how it ends.  Elon's gonna Elon when it comes to social media.



Musk is at minimum a moron who is parroting Russian propaganda so he's a twat no matter what his goals are, I think we can all agree with that. Given his suggestions, I wouldn't be surprised if he has been listening to pro-Russian news outlets or Tucker Carlson, Lol. Just another rich dude who thinks he's a genius in every area in life and his thoughts are the only good ones.

His ideas basically amounted to giving Russia almost everything they want, a forced neutral Ukraine, after everything Russia has done to them, surrendering Crimea to Russia based on Russian propaganda, forcing Ukraine to supply water to a country that just tried to genocide them. All on the insane belief that Russia won't just use this opportunity to shore up their military and try again later.

His referendum ideas were a joke too, especially since these regions have already voted in favour of leaving Russia in the past. It's ridiculous and basically suggests that Russia can invade anywhere it wants now and that country will have to do a forced referendum under supervision just to be sure they don't want to be Russian. Lol.

Russia might as well invade America, kill a few hundred thousand people, displace even more, install some Russian puppets and then genius Musk idea is that we force America to hold a referendum on voting if these lands should be American or Russian (Yes, I know this won't happen and it's not a legit suggestion, it's just meant to show how dumb his idea is).

Some Westerners, like Musk, don't realise how incredibly insulting their proposals are, how easy it is for them to suggest this stuff from the comfort of their nations which aren't under threat at all, who don't understand a thing about how Ukraine is feeling and don't even bother to try to understand how they're feeling, he should stfu and let Ukraine do what it thinks is best for its country.

Also, the annoying nuclear war fearmongering, often used by Russia to try to scare the West into not supporting Ukraine and the fearmongering about Russia's imaginary millions strong army, Russia's "full mobilisation" which many actual military experts (unlike Musk) have said at this stage won't make much of a difference at all because shockingly, you have to actually be able to supply those troops in a war and command them efficiently.

He's just being a richer Tucker Carlson but without a few of the conspiracy theories that Tucker vomits out. So, I think we can agree, he's an idiot at best, a Russian stooge at worst, no matter what his goals were with that tweet.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 05 October 2022

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? @crissindahouse 





Putin's genius strikes again.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 05 October 2022

Ryuu96 said:

What you see here in action actually is the result of 6+ months of western training. It consists of the following steps:

1. Use massive satellite imagery to identify weak spots in the Russian defence line(s).

2. Use fast mobile elements to break through the weak spots (possibly using artillery support).

3. Do NOT fight with the units that broke through. Drive on, actually away from the battlefield...

4. Turn back and attack the Russian spots from the sides or even from behind, and now from the front as well.

5. Enjoy Russian panic when they realise they are surrounded by unknown enemy forces.

This operation has yielded the large territorial gains in the last few days/week. Notice this requires extremely precise coordination of all elements involved, otherwise you are killing your own people. This is why we'll see these images from now on. This is a tactic that requires long training and working command and communication structures. Something the Russians/Chechens/local tribes do not have and won't have in the foreseeable future.