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Forums - Movies & TV - Johnny Depp asked to resign from Fantastic Beasts series after court loss, #3 delayed

shikamaru317 said:
Barozi said:

IMDB user score is far far lower (6.6). On par with the 2nd movie.

My wife dragged me in to see it and we both had the opinion that it wasn't good. Slightly better than the abysmal second movie but a far cry from the first.

Wouldn't recommend at all, not even to the most hard core Harry Potter fan.

True, but IMDb's user scores are often radically different than other user review sites. For instance their The Last Jedi user reviews were significantly higher than Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic, I think it was something like 7.1/10 on IMDb vs 40% positive and 2.5/5 (or 5/10) on Rotten Tomatoes last time I looked. Another for instance would be Star Trek Picard, 7.5/10 on IMDb vs a 47% overall, 37% season 2 on Rotten Tomatoes. I personally suspect there is some kind of left/right political divide between the audiences who use IMDb vs the other user review sites, with IMDb's userbase trending further to the left, as I have noticed that the left wing fans tend to like the Star Wars sequels and the newest Star Trek fans while the right wing fans don't. That could also explain why IMDb's user reviews are lower than the other user review sites, with the left targeting it with lower scores due to JK Rowling's stand against trans people invading women's spaces. 

Personally I saw Fantastic Beasts 3 last night and enjoyed it, it was actually my 3rd favorite movie I have seen for the first time this year so far (the other 2 were Guardians of the Galaxy 1 and 2 which I watched for the first time on my full MCU chronological order rewatch). I liked it better than other MCU movies that I saw for the first time this year like Black Panther, Thor 2, Captain America 2, Ant-Man, and Black Widow. I agree that FB 3 is better than 2, but I personally thought it was about on par with the first.

Spoiler!
I quite liked the new character, Lally (in fact she is my new 2nd favorite character of the series after Jakob), the action scenes were the best out of the 3 movies, and I enjoyed the overall storyline in spite of the predictable twist. On the downside, I wasn't overly fond of the amount of focus on the Dumbledore-Grindelwald gay relationship, nor did I like that Tina's role was limited to a cameo appearance. 

The movie wasn't really targeted on IMDB though which is easy to tell when looking at the score breakdown. 5% giving it 1 stars isn't really that high and compared to the prequel the 10 stars ratings grew more than the 1 stars ratings.

The median is 7 (and it's not even close) and the second highest score is 6 so a total score in the range of 6.5-7 is totally plausible.

My problems with the movie:

Spoiler!

The movie title is highly misleading.

a) it's barely about fantastic beasts this time around. If it wasn't for the Qilin (which only appears here and there) it wouldn't even have more beasts than any regular Harry Potter movie. Even Newt's beast sidekicks (Niffler and stick guy) barely do anything. Not to mention literally everything else that is in his suitcase. In some scenes they even added some beasts in the background just to remind the people that they are watching a movie about mystical animals.

b) what exactly is Dumbledore's secret? That Credence is a Dumbledore? Uhm we already know that from the prequel. That Grindelwald is Dumbledore's former lover? Okay but that's not only not really that important but we already knew that they used to be best buddies.

Credence, who is basically the main plot device in the second movie got downgraded so much in this movie that he became completely irrelevant. He's no threat at all. Then he got a change of heart out of nowhere. Dumbledore only told him that Grindelwald lied to him and the only truth is that he is a Dumbledore. Am I supposed to believe that these words (without any proof I might add) are enough to not only calm his anger but also to tip him over the edge in becoming a good guy? I guess they just want to phase out Ezra Miller as fast as possible.

Queenie, who joined Grindelwald for no reason at all in the second movie does another sudden 180 and immediately marries Jacob. Terrible character development.

Newt got downgraded a lot too. He used to be THE main character of the series but now he's barely more important than any of the other characters. He's also completely irrelevant for the ending of the movie. His assistant did more for the story than he did. Newt was only important in the opening scene where he got the Qilin. After that he did nothing of significance (saving his brother didn't matter either for the story).

What's with the International Confederation of Wizards stuff that had no significance in any other Fantastic Beasts or Harry Potter movie/book? Now it's suddenly a big thing.

What's with the part where the "Supreme Mugwump" Vogel said that it's well known that a Qilin can't be influenced by magic yet Grindelwald can just create a zombie Qilin that does what he wants and other than that acts just like a regular Qilin...



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Otter said:

The films decline has nothing to do with Johnny Depp, just as Crimes of Grinderwald declined and underperformed despite him being front and center of marketing. The Fantastic Beast films just don't have draw as a franchise, no.2 killed most remaining interest and the focus is too confused and Newt is shoehorned into the narrative. They need to condense 4/5 into one movie, then focus on the Wizarding World on TV and games.

I think that no matter how well the film did, people were going to use its performance as proof of what the "silent majority" were doing and thinking. Had it done well, it would have been proof that the silent majority were supporting the film because they agreed with Rowling's gender-critical views. And had it done poorly, it would have been (and seemingly is being treated as) proof that the silent majority were boycotting the film in protest of Johnny Depp's firing.

But yeah, the second film earned about $200m less than the first, so it doesn't seem like Depp brought in some huge legion of fans who've now deserted the franchise.



Barozi said:
shikamaru317 said:

True, but IMDb's user scores are often radically different than other user review sites. For instance their The Last Jedi user reviews were significantly higher than Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic, I think it was something like 7.1/10 on IMDb vs 40% positive and 2.5/5 (or 5/10) on Rotten Tomatoes last time I looked. Another for instance would be Star Trek Picard, 7.5/10 on IMDb vs a 47% overall, 37% season 2 on Rotten Tomatoes. I personally suspect there is some kind of left/right political divide between the audiences who use IMDb vs the other user review sites, with IMDb's userbase trending further to the left, as I have noticed that the left wing fans tend to like the Star Wars sequels and the newest Star Trek fans while the right wing fans don't. That could also explain why IMDb's user reviews are lower than the other user review sites, with the left targeting it with lower scores due to JK Rowling's stand against trans people invading women's spaces. 

Personally I saw Fantastic Beasts 3 last night and enjoyed it, it was actually my 3rd favorite movie I have seen for the first time this year so far (the other 2 were Guardians of the Galaxy 1 and 2 which I watched for the first time on my full MCU chronological order rewatch). I liked it better than other MCU movies that I saw for the first time this year like Black Panther, Thor 2, Captain America 2, Ant-Man, and Black Widow. I agree that FB 3 is better than 2, but I personally thought it was about on par with the first.

Spoiler!
I quite liked the new character, Lally (in fact she is my new 2nd favorite character of the series after Jakob), the action scenes were the best out of the 3 movies, and I enjoyed the overall storyline in spite of the predictable twist. On the downside, I wasn't overly fond of the amount of focus on the Dumbledore-Grindelwald gay relationship, nor did I like that Tina's role was limited to a cameo appearance. 

Spoiler!

The movie title is highly misleading.

a) it's barely about fantastic beasts this time around. If it wasn't for the Qilin (which only appears here and there) it wouldn't even have more beasts than any regular Harry Potter movie. Even Newt's beast sidekicks (Niffler and stick guy) barely do anything. Not to mention literally everything else that is in his suitcase. In some scenes they even added some beasts in the background just to remind the people that they are watching a movie about mystical animals.

Well that has basically been a problem with the series since the 2nd movie. For whatever reason JK decided to make the series about Newt and named it after the book that Newt had already written within the universe in Harry Potter, when only the first movie in the series would have a plot that was primarily focused on Fantastic Beasts. It was pretty clear after the first movie that the main plot of the series was the Global Wizarding War leading up to the 1945 final duel between Dumbledore and Grindelwald where Dumbledore wins and gets possession of the Elder Wand we saw him with the Harry Potter books/movies. I guess she thought that Fantastic Beasts was a more magical and marketable name than giving it a name that pertained to the Global Wizarding War or Dumbledore, but it also forced her into making magical beasts a plot point in every movie, even if they feel shoehorned in at times.

I agree with you that Newt's animal sidekicks do less than in the past, but I still enjoyed the scene where the Niffler and Bowtruckle saving Newt and Theseus in the prison, especially the scene where the Bowtruckle thought the Niffler was saving him from the fall only for the Niffler to be jumping for the falling coins instead. And the Quilin, a magical beast, was the big MacGuffin of the movie, so I guess the Fantastic Beasts name is still fitting, even if the beasts themselves do feel a bit shoehorned into the Global Wizarding War plot of the movies at this point.

b) what exactly is Dumbledore's secret? That Credence is a Dumbledore? Uhm we already know that from the prequel. That Grindelwald is Dumbledore's former lover? Okay but that's not only not really that important but we already knew that they used to be best buddies.

I think the title here was referring to multiple secrets, the secrets of the Dumbledore family itself. 1. Albus' secret gay relationship with Grindelwald (which would have been at the very least greatly frowned upon by the public at the time, and very likely would have been illegal if the the Ministry of Magic's laws were anything like the muggle world's laws in 1899). 2. Aberforth's secret child, Aurelius/Creedence, who was presumably born out of wedlock (which also would have been pretty controversial in the year 1900 when he was born) 3. The combined Albus/Aberforth secret that their sister Ariana had been killed when attempting to intervene during the 3 way duel between the 2 of them and Grindelwald, which we had previously learned about in the final Harry Potter book/movie. 

Credence, who is basically the main plot device in the second movie got downgraded so much in this movie that he became completely irrelevant. He's no threat at all. Then he got a change of heart out of nowhere. Dumbledore only told him that Grindelwald lied to him and the only truth is that he is a Dumbledore. Am I supposed to believe that these words (without any proof I might add) are enough to not only calm his anger but also to tip him over the edge in becoming a good guy? I guess they just want to phase out Ezra Miller as fast as possible.

A fair complaint. I suspect after the incident with Ezra choking the girl in 2020, JK was looking to write his character out of the series as quickly as possible, and thus wrapped up his storyline earlier than was originally intended. Ultimately, it turned out to be the right choice though, as now that Ezra has gotten himself into even more trouble, Creedence would had to have been recast for a 4th movie, it's better that she had the foresight to wrap up his character arc in the 3rd movie, so that we don't end up with 2 different main characters getting recast over the course of the series. 

Queenie, who joined Grindelwald for no reason at all in the second movie does another sudden 180 and immediately marries Jacob. Terrible character development.

I think she immediately regretted joining with Grindelwald just to try and change the Wizarding World laws that were preventing her from marrying Jacob, a muggle. She would have very quickly realized just how evil and wrong Grindelwald was between the 2nd and 3rd movie. The scene with her revealing to Creedence that she kept things that she had mind read secret from Grindelwald was showing that she already had doubts about Grindelwald at that point in the movie. Then during Grindelwald's speech after being "elected" as the Supreme Mugwump he sold Queenie out and revealed her secret love of Jacob and called it an abomination (because he believes in keeping Wizarding Blood pure), which would have been the final straw that turned her back to the Good side.

As for the wedding at the end, I assume that the new Supreme Mugwump, the Brazilian Woman, changed the law that was preventing Queenie and Jacob from marrying in the 2nd movie. Either that or they finally had the courage to openly defy the law and get married anyway, not sure which.

Newt got downgraded a lot too. He used to be THE main character of the series but now he's barely more important than any of the other characters. He's also completely irrelevant for the ending of the movie. His assistant did more for the story than he did. Newt was only important in the opening scene where he got the Qilin. After that he did nothing of significance (saving his brother didn't matter either for the story).

As I stated about, Newt always felt a bit shoehorned in as the main character of the series, when it was clear that the primary plot was about Dumbledore and Grindelwald. That being said, he still had the most screentime of all of the characters in the movie, and his role was instrumental for the MacGuffin of the movie, the twin Quilins.

What's with the International Confederation of Wizards stuff that had no significance in any other Fantastic Beasts or Harry Potter movie/book? Now it's suddenly a big thing.

It has always been a big thing in the lore of the series, The International Confederation of Wizards is effectively the same thing as the Muggle United Nations, though seemingly with more powers than the UN holds, while the Supreme Mugwump leads the ICW. For instance Dumbledore himself was the Supreme Mugwump during the first 4 Harry Potter movies, though he was ousted from office after he claimed that Voldemort had returned in the Wake of the 4th movie, as the rest of the ICW wanted to hide Voldemort's return.

What's with the part where the "Supreme Mugwump" Vogel said that it's well known that a Qilin can't be influenced by magic yet Grindelwald can just create a zombie Qilin that does what he wants and other than that acts just like a regular Qilin...

Vogel was lying all along, he was working with Grindelwald. 

Bolded my responses in your quote. 

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 18 April 2022

Otter said:

Mads was a superior Grindelwald so justice was done. The films decline has nothing to do with Johnny Depp, just as Crimes of Grinderwald declined and underperformed despite him being front and center of marketing. The Fantastic Beast films just don't have draw as a franchise, no.2 killed most remaining interest and the focus is too confused and Newt is shoehorned into the narrative. They need to condense 4/5 into one movie, then focus on the Wizarding World on TV and games.

I see a few problems with condensing 4 and 5 into one movie:

The 1st is the timeline vs the ages of some of the actors. The 3rd movie is set in 1932, while the final duel between Albus Dumbledore and Gellert Grindelwald that ended the Global Wizarding War is 1945, 13 years later. For instance, Dumbledore would be 64 years old in 1945 while Jude Law is currently 49. Newt would be 48 in 1945, Eddie Redmayne is currently 40. Some of the other actors are closer to the proper age to film the 5th movie already, but Jude Law in particular might need some minor aging makeup and prosthetics or costly CGI digital aging to pull off filming the final scenes soon. 

The 2nd, and larger issue, is that almost the entirety of the actual Global Wizarding War would be condensed into a single movie. The Global Wizarding War is huge in scale, roughly equivalent to the Muggle World War 2 both in scale and timing. The first 3 movies have been set during the effective Cold War stage of the Global Wizarding War, actual Open Warfare begins in 1938 (6 years after the 3rd movie) and lasts until 1945, that is 7 years of open warfare between the majority of the Wizarding Governments of the World (as well as Dumbledore's First Army) vs. Grindelwald, his Inner Circle of Acolytes, and his Alliance (which is made up of Witch and Wizard defectors from around the world, as well as the German Wizarding Government). It's alot to fit into a single movie, even if they push it to 3 hours. 

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 18 April 2022

shikamaru317 said:
Barozi said:

Spoiler!

The movie title is highly misleading.

a) it's barely about fantastic beasts this time around. If it wasn't for the Qilin (which only appears here and there) it wouldn't even have more beasts than any regular Harry Potter movie. Even Newt's beast sidekicks (Niffler and stick guy) barely do anything. Not to mention literally everything else that is in his suitcase. In some scenes they even added some beasts in the background just to remind the people that they are watching a movie about mystical animals.

Well that has basically been a problem with the series since the 2nd movie. For whatever reason JK decided to make the series about Newt and named it after the book that Newt had already written within the universe in Harry Potter, when only the first movie in the series would have a plot that was primarily focused on Fantastic Beasts. It was pretty clear after the first movie that the main plot of the series was the Global Wizarding War leading up to the 1945 final duel between Dumbledore and Grindelwald where Dumbledore wins and gets possession of the Elder Wand we saw him with the Harry Potter books/movies. I guess she thought that Fantastic Beasts was a more magical and marketable name than giving it a name that pertained to the Global Wizarding War or Dumbledore, but it also forced her into making magical beasts a plot point in every movie, even if they feel shoehorned in at times.

I agree with you that Newt's animal sidekicks do less than in the past, but I still enjoyed the scene where the Niffler and Bowtruckle saving Newt and Theseus in the prison, especially the scene where the Bowtruckle thought the Niffler was saving him from the fall only for the Niffler to be jumping for the falling coins instead. And the Quilin, a magical beast, was the big MacGuffin of the movie, so I guess the Fantastic Beasts name is still fitting, even if the beasts themselves do feel a bit shoehorned into the Global Wizarding War plot of the movies at this point.

b) what exactly is Dumbledore's secret? That Credence is a Dumbledore? Uhm we already know that from the prequel. That Grindelwald is Dumbledore's former lover? Okay but that's not only not really that important but we already knew that they used to be best buddies.

I think the title here was referring to multiple secrets, the secrets of the Dumbledore family itself. 1. Albus' secret gay relationship with Grindelwald (which would have been at the very least greatly frowned upon by the public at the time, and very likely would have been illegal if the the Ministry of Magic's laws were anything like the muggle world's laws in 1899). 2. Aberforth's secret child, Aurelius/Creedence, who was presumably born out of wedlock (which also would have been pretty controversial in the year 1900 when he was born) 3. The combined Albus/Aberforth secret that their sister Ariana had been killed when attempting to intervene during the 3 way duel between the 2 of them and Grindelwald, which we had previously learned about in the final Harry Potter book/movie. 

Credence, who is basically the main plot device in the second movie got downgraded so much in this movie that he became completely irrelevant. He's no threat at all. Then he got a change of heart out of nowhere. Dumbledore only told him that Grindelwald lied to him and the only truth is that he is a Dumbledore. Am I supposed to believe that these words (without any proof I might add) are enough to not only calm his anger but also to tip him over the edge in becoming a good guy? I guess they just want to phase out Ezra Miller as fast as possible.

A fair complaint. I suspect after the incident with Ezra choking the girl in 2020, JK was looking to write his character out of the series as quickly as possible, and thus wrapped up his storyline earlier than was originally intended. Ultimately, it turned out to be the right choice though, as now that Ezra has gotten himself into even more trouble, Creedence would had to have been recast for a 4th movie, it's better that she had the foresight to wrap up his character arc in the 3rd movie, so that we don't end up with 2 different main characters getting recast over the course of the series. 

Queenie, who joined Grindelwald for no reason at all in the second movie does another sudden 180 and immediately marries Jacob. Terrible character development.

I think she immediately regretted joining with Grindelwald just to try and change the Wizarding World laws that were preventing her from marrying Jacob, a muggle. She would have very quickly realized just how evil and wrong Grindelwald was between the 2nd and 3rd movie. The scene with her revealing to Creedence that she kept things that she had mind read secret from Grindelwald was showing that she already had doubts about Grindelwald at that point in the movie. Then during Grindelwald's speech after being "elected" as the Supreme Mugwump he sold Queenie out and revealed her secret love of Jacob and called it an abomination (because he believes in keeping Wizarding Blood pure), which would have been the final straw that turned her back to the Good side.

As for the wedding at the end, I assume that the new Supreme Mugwump, the Brazilian Woman, changed the law that was preventing Queenie and Jacob from marrying in the 2nd movie. Either that or they finally had the courage to openly defy the law and get married anyway, not sure which.

Newt got downgraded a lot too. He used to be THE main character of the series but now he's barely more important than any of the other characters. He's also completely irrelevant for the ending of the movie. His assistant did more for the story than he did. Newt was only important in the opening scene where he got the Qilin. After that he did nothing of significance (saving his brother didn't matter either for the story).

As I stated about, Newt always felt a bit shoehorned in as the main character of the series, when it was clear that the primary plot was about Dumbledore and Grindelwald. That being said, he still had the most screentime of all of the characters in the movie, and his role was instrumental for the MacGuffin of the movie, the twin Quilins.

What's with the International Confederation of Wizards stuff that had no significance in any other Fantastic Beasts or Harry Potter movie/book? Now it's suddenly a big thing.

It has always been a big thing in the lore of the series, The International Confederation of Wizards is effectively the same thing as the Muggle United Nations, though seemingly with more powers than the UN holds, while the Supreme Mugwump leads the ICW. For instance Dumbledore himself was the Supreme Mugwump during the first 4 Harry Potter movies, though he was ousted from office after he claimed that Voldemort had returned in the Wake of the 4th movie, as the rest of the ICW wanted to hide Voldemort's return.

What's with the part where the "Supreme Mugwump" Vogel said that it's well known that a Qilin can't be influenced by magic yet Grindelwald can just create a zombie Qilin that does what he wants and other than that acts just like a regular Qilin...

Vogel was lying all along, he was working with Grindelwald. 

Bolded my responses in your quote. 

That's the thing though. The SM is so unimportant, that Albus being the SM in the first four books is only a sidenote. I just looked up who replaced Albus after the events of the fourth book and it turns out that it's never mentioned in the books (or movies obviously) only on the website as additional lore (according to the Harry Potter Wiki).

You say he was lying all along but how do you know he was lying in this specific moment? It's obviously all fictional so the movie must let the audience know when something is a lie and when it isn't. Absolutely no one had an objection when he made that comment including several people (from both the good and neutral side) who know if it's a lie or not, so I as the audience must assume that it's the truth.



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More bad news for Amber (and more court bombshells this week): Amber is officially a diagnosed narcissist AND responding cops testify to seeing NO injuries on her. And Amber lies yet again, this time about suffering PTSD at the nonexistent abuse Johnny dished out at her.

It should be worth pointing out that the psychologist, Dr. Shannon Curry actually diagnosed her with two personality disorders: Borderline Personality Disorder and Histrionic Personality Disorder. BPD is not a medically-recognized form of narcissism (even though we all know she IS a narcissist, hence why she secretly recorded Johnny at his lowest moment to try to make him look bad, conveniently falsely-accused Johnny when he said he wanted a divorce, and so on, which the audiotapes they played this week also showed with her constantly talking over JD and goading him when he tried to walk away), HPD IS, however.

In any case, I still don't take pity on her for her despicable actions because she refused to get the help she desperately needs, you know, kinda like another lunatic WB enabled and kept onboard for projects over JD.

And the cherry on top: her lawyer objecting to his own question, ROFLMAO!



KManX89 said:

And the cherry on top: her lawyer objecting to his own question, ROFLMAO!

Not that this changes anything, but he was objecting to the answer, not the question.



It definitely seems like Amber is losing the case. Everything I have seen posted online looks bad for her. Her lawyers seem grossly incompetent, she has been caught in multiple lies, multiple witnesses and experts called to the stand gave testimony that was good for Johnny. I don't see how any sane jury could side with her at this point.



the-pi-guy said:
KManX89 said:

And the cherry on top: her lawyer objecting to his own question, ROFLMAO!

Not that this changes anything, but he was objecting to the answer, not the question.

Then he should've asked to strike it from the record, not object. Objections are for the opposing counsel.

Him supposedly being an experienced lawyer, he should know this stuff in the back of his head.

shikamaru317 said:

It definitely seems like Amber is losing the case. Everything I have seen posted online looks bad for her. Her lawyers seem grossly incompetent, she has been caught in multiple lies, multiple witnesses and experts called to the stand gave testimony that was good for Johnny. I don't see how any sane jury could side with her at this point.

Don't forget audiotapes where Amber once again tries to start fights with Johnny while he tries to deescalate the situation and walk away.

Basically, all they have is the tape where Johnny accidentally head-clashes with Amber while trying to restrain her (which he actually needed medical attention for the swelling she caused to his face, and so him simply walking away wasn't an option this time around, he had to fend her off somehow), some irrelevant drug history, some witch hunt joke texts his friend originally sent him and fake bruise photos which are runny makeup. Basically, nothing tangible. Johnny, OTOH has hours and hours of CCTV, witness statements and audiotapes saying he never touched her.

I can't wait until Amber takes the witness stand because Johnny's team is so gonna eat her alive. So many lies and contradictions in her story for them to expose, it's gonna be juicy. Her lawyers might even do everything in their power to keep her off the stand or answering any questions via constant objections.

Last edited by KManX89 - on 27 April 2022

KManX89 said:

Then he should've asked to strike it from the record, not object. Objections are for the opposing counsel.

Him supposedly being an experienced lawyer, he should know this stuff in the back of his head.

I'm assuming you didn't watch the video in my post that literally mentions this.