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Forums - Gaming - Best remake of 2020 so far...

 

Best remake of 2020 so far...

Trials of Mana 10 20.00%
 
Final Fantasy VII 27 54.00%
 
Resident Evil 3 9 18.00%
 
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon 4 8.00%
 
Total:50
Hynad said:
JWeinCom said:

I mean... I tried my best to understand it.  I rephrased it, and asked if I had it right, and asked you to clarify if I had it wrong.  Whether you believe me or not, I was trying my best to understand what you were saying, and just didn't think the analogy worked.  If you can say you were honestly giving me the same courtesy, I'll accept that.  

I edited my reply to you, but I will copy-paste what I added here:

If I applied your reasoning, I would say XCDE (species) is a video game (kingdom), a Switch product (family), and a remaster (genus). Or something along those lines.

Cool.  That shows you understood the general point I was making.

The problem with that though is that if that I just don't think FFVII Switch and Xenoblade Chronicles DE belong in the same genus.  I understand your point that it has a certain feature in common with FFVII, that it's based on the same source code, but I think it has more features in common with games that you'd put in the remake genus, like Link's Awakening.

The point of classification systems is to put things into workable groupings.  I.e. things that are comparable.  I feel like it would make sense for instance to ask "What is a better remake Xenoblade Chronicles DE or Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes?"  I think we can have a good discussion about that. On the other hand if you asked me "which is a better remaster, Final Fantasy VII Switch or Xenoblade Chronicles DE?"  I wouldn't know what to say.  Those games are so different in terms of what their purpose is that I don't think you can meaningfully compare them.  And if they're not comparable, they should be grouped separately.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 07 May 2020

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JWeinCom said:
Hynad said:

I edited my reply to you, but I will copy-paste what I added here:

If I applied your reasoning, I would say XCDE (species) is a video game (kingdom), a Switch product (family), and a remaster (genus). Or something along those lines.

Cool.  That shows you understood the general point I was making.

The problem with that though is that if that I just don't think FFVII Switch and Xenoblade Chronicles DE belong in the same genus.  I understand your point that it has a certain feature in common with FFVII, that it's based on the same source code, but I think it has more features in common with games that you'd put in the remake genus, like Link's Awakening.

The point of classification systems is to put things into workable groupings.  I.e. things that are comparable.  I feel like it would make sense for instance to ask "What is a better remake Xenoblade Chronicles DE or Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes?"  I think we can have a good discussion about that. On the other hand if you asked me "which is a better remaster, Final Fantasy VII Switch or Xenoblade Chronicles DE?"  I wouldn't know what to say.  Those games are so different in terms of what their purpose is that I don't think you can meaningfully compare them.  And if they're not comparable, they should be grouped separately.

It is no different than comparing the work being done for AAA games. Some push certain aspects much more than others, yet they’re still AAA games, even if they don’t all look as good as God of War.

And I think the distinction can be made between mere ports and remasters.

FFVII on Switch is a port. It looks pretty much the same as the original, but enjoys the benefits of running on more modern hardware, so it’s polygon assets are rendered at a higher resolution. While a remaster has actual tweaks done to its assets, like FFX, XII and yeah, Xenoblade Chronicles.

Not all ports are remasters.



Psycho

Metallox said:
Leynos said:

Do you consider Psycho 1998 a remaster of the 1960 film of the same name? Shot for shot they are exactly the same. Just new sets and new actors. It's a remake. Xenoblade uses a new code. New engine. New assets. It was quite literally remade in the definition of the word. Uses new art tho. All this confusion started in the 7th gen when remasters were marketed as remakes. Even tho they were just ports of PS2 games cleaned up for HD consoles. A remaster. Same thing when an old movie is remastered for HD. FFVII R is not a remake but further confused the term by using it. You can debate reboot/reimagining term but either one is more fitting than a remake.

You cannot take marketing as gospel. If we did then every single game ever made the last 15 years is innovative and "cinematic" when they themselves don't even know what cinematic means. It's a nothing term that changes definition by those who use it. Sadly that's happened with terms that had definitive definitions before all this BS. Sure a remaster can add new features but the game is still the same assets just cleaned up. There is also this misconception a remake has to look better. See FFVI on Mobile or FFXV Pocket edition. A remake is just that. A game or work remade with new assets even if they closely resemble the older film or game.

Haven't heard of those movies. 

Surely remake literally means to redo, to do again. But I'm twisting the definition to fit better the gaming context, to make it more akin to reimaginig. There are three categories of rerelease if you ask me: a plain rerelease,where you release again a game in the exact same state it was before, a remaster, in which you upgrade visuals and add minor adjustments, and a remake, where you explore an original work and make a new take on it. 

The boundaries for what is a remake and a remaster are very fragile, but are firm enough to determine that Resident Evil 3 2020 is a remake and Xenoblade DE is a remaster. 

Psycho is one of the most famous films of all time. It's an attraction at Universal Studios. It had several sequels a remake and 2 TV shows. How is it possible to never hear of it? Like saying someone never heard of Exorcist.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

Hynad said:
JWeinCom said:

Cool.  That shows you understood the general point I was making.

The problem with that though is that if that I just don't think FFVII Switch and Xenoblade Chronicles DE belong in the same genus.  I understand your point that it has a certain feature in common with FFVII, that it's based on the same source code, but I think it has more features in common with games that you'd put in the remake genus, like Link's Awakening.

The point of classification systems is to put things into workable groupings.  I.e. things that are comparable.  I feel like it would make sense for instance to ask "What is a better remake Xenoblade Chronicles DE or Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes?"  I think we can have a good discussion about that. On the other hand if you asked me "which is a better remaster, Final Fantasy VII Switch or Xenoblade Chronicles DE?"  I wouldn't know what to say.  Those games are so different in terms of what their purpose is that I don't think you can meaningfully compare them.  And if they're not comparable, they should be grouped separately.

It is no different than comparing the work being done for AAA games. Some push certain aspects much more than others, yet they’re still AAA games, even if they don’t all look as good as God of War.

And I think the distinction can be made between mere ports and remasters.

FFVII on Switch is a port. It looks pretty much the same as the original, but enjoys the benefits of running on more modern hardware, so it’s polygon assets are rendered at a higher resolution. While a remaster has actual tweaks done to its assets, like FFX, XII and yeah, Xenoblade Chronicles.

Not all ports are remasters.

FF7 uses cleaned up assets and the menus were redone. They also added cheats. It's a remaster. By literal definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remaster

Your opinion is moot to actual definition but keep beating this dead horse with a blindfold on.

Last edited by Leynos - on 07 May 2020

Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

Leynos said:
Hynad said:

It is no different than comparing the work being done for AAA games. Some push certain aspects much more than others, yet they’re still AAA games, even if they don’t all look as good as God of War.

And I think the distinction can be made between mere ports and remasters.

FFVII on Switch is a port. It looks pretty much the same as the original, but enjoys the benefits of running on more modern hardware, so it’s polygon assets are rendered at a higher resolution. While a remaster has actual tweaks done to its assets, like FFX, XII and yeah, Xenoblade Chronicles.

Not all ports are remasters.

FF7 uses cleaned up assets and the menus were redone. They also added cheats. It's a remaster. By literal definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remaster

Your opinion is moot to actual definition but keep beating this dead horse with a blindfold on.

The assets look cleaner because they are rendered at a higher resolution, genius. It is a port of the PC version of the game.

K? Thx. Bye.



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You seem to think it can't be both. The PC version is a remaster and a port. So is the Switch version. A remaster is a port, just cleaned up. Want to lay more insults? If you want to then read my sig.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

Leynos said:
You seem to think it can't be both. The PC version is a remaster and a port. So is the Switch version. A remaster is a port, just cleaned up. Want to lay more insults? If you want to then read my sig.

You obviously have no idea what a port is.

Do me a favor and don't talk to me again. 



Hynad said:
JWeinCom said:

Cool.  That shows you understood the general point I was making.

The problem with that though is that if that I just don't think FFVII Switch and Xenoblade Chronicles DE belong in the same genus.  I understand your point that it has a certain feature in common with FFVII, that it's based on the same source code, but I think it has more features in common with games that you'd put in the remake genus, like Link's Awakening.

The point of classification systems is to put things into workable groupings.  I.e. things that are comparable.  I feel like it would make sense for instance to ask "What is a better remake Xenoblade Chronicles DE or Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes?"  I think we can have a good discussion about that. On the other hand if you asked me "which is a better remaster, Final Fantasy VII Switch or Xenoblade Chronicles DE?"  I wouldn't know what to say.  Those games are so different in terms of what their purpose is that I don't think you can meaningfully compare them.  And if they're not comparable, they should be grouped separately.

It is no different than comparing the work being done for AAA games. Some push certain aspects much more than others, yet they’re still AAA games, even if they don’t all look as good as God of War.

And I think the distinction can be made between mere ports and remasters.

FFVII on Switch is a port. It looks pretty much the same as the original, but enjoys the benefits of running on more modern hardware, so it’s polygon assets are rendered at a higher resolution. While a remaster has actual tweaks done to its assets, like FFX, XII and yeah, Xenoblade Chronicles.

Not all ports are remasters.

I thought you'd referred to FFVII as a remaster.  If not, you can swap it for VIII in the example.  And categories are obviously going to convey a range of things.  

Obviously a category is going to contain a range of things.  But if a category is too broad or too narrow it's useless.  

Let's try this.  The purpose of a label is to convey useful information about a particular thing in a quick way.  Yes? 

If the label of remake vs remaster literally tells you only one thing, that it does or doesn't use some undefined amount of source code, and tells you next to nothing about what the new product will be like vs the original, what is the point of this label?  What purpose does sorting games into a "reuses some source code" pile and a "does not use source code" pile serve? Why should we bother?



JWeinCom said:
Hynad said:

It is no different than comparing the work being done for AAA games. Some push certain aspects much more than others, yet they’re still AAA games, even if they don’t all look as good as God of War.

And I think the distinction can be made between mere ports and remasters.

FFVII on Switch is a port. It looks pretty much the same as the original, but enjoys the benefits of running on more modern hardware, so it’s polygon assets are rendered at a higher resolution. While a remaster has actual tweaks done to its assets, like FFX, XII and yeah, Xenoblade Chronicles.

Not all ports are remasters.

I thought you'd referred to FFVII as a remaster.  If not, you can swap it for VIII in the example.  And categories are obviously going to convey a range of things.  

Obviously a category is going to contain a range of things.  But if a category is too broad or too narrow it's useless.  

Let's try this.  The purpose of a label is to convey useful information about a particular thing in a quick way.  Yes? 

If the label of remake vs remaster literally tells you only one thing, that it does or doesn't use some undefined amount of source code, and tells you next to nothing about what the new product will be like vs the original, what is the point of this label?  What purpose does sorting games into a "reuses some source code" pile and a "does not use source code" pile serve? Why should we bother?

I referred to VIII as a remaster, not VII. Which it is. They ported it over, and embellished it by reworking many of its assets. Not to the same degree as XCDE, sure, on that we agree.

And the purpose of it is simply to know the kind of project one can expect. Resident Evil 2 is a remake, so I expect a new experience compared to the original. And that's what the game provides. XCDE is a remaster, and I expect it to be pretty much the same experience as it was on the original Wii version, but unlike mere ports, I'll expect it to be improved aesthetically and from a QoL point of view. I am not expecting the game to play differently or to be drastically different from the original.

A user said FF VII Remake wasn't a remake, and I honestly couldn't have facepalmed more. 

Last edited by Hynad - on 07 May 2020

Hynad said:
JWeinCom said:

I thought you'd referred to FFVII as a remaster.  If not, you can swap it for VIII in the example.  And categories are obviously going to convey a range of things.  

Obviously a category is going to contain a range of things.  But if a category is too broad or too narrow it's useless.  

Let's try this.  The purpose of a label is to convey useful information about a particular thing in a quick way.  Yes? 

If the label of remake vs remaster literally tells you only one thing, that it does or doesn't use some undefined amount of source code, and tells you next to nothing about what the new product will be like vs the original, what is the point of this label?  What purpose does sorting games into a "reuses some source code" pile and a "does not use source code" pile serve? Why should we bother?

I referred to VIII as a remaster. Which it is. They ported it over, and embellished it by reworking many of its assets.

And the purpose of it is simply to know the kind of project one can expect. Resident Evil 2 is a remake, so I expect a new experience compared to the original. And that's what the game provides. XCDE is a remaster, and I expect it to be pretty much the same experience as it was on the original Wii version, but unlike mere ports, I'll expect it to be improved visually and from a QoL point of view. I am not expecting the game to play differently or to be drastically different from the original. Unlike remakes. 

A user said FF VII Remake wasn't a remake, and I honestly couldn't have facepalmed more. 

I don't think it's a remake either so feel free to facepalm again.  At best it's a part of a remake that may become a full remake in the future when it's put together with other products. 

Anyway, if you're defining remake the way you are, then it actually doesn't tell you that.  You can use entirely new code to create a game that is pretty much the same experience.  Case in point, Pokemon Fire Red and Leaf Green.

If remake can refer to anything ranging from a very similar product, Pokemon Fire Red, to something that's different in almost every way, FF7 Remake, then that label is effectively useless.

And at any rate, using Shiken's system gives you a much better idea of how similar the product will be to the original.  

Anyway that's probably all the time and energy I'll devote to this.