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Forums - Gaming Discussion - PS5 vs XSeX: Understanding the Gap

Intrinsic on 23 March 2020
m0ney said:

15% difference in power translates into a few frames, I don't know what the big fuss is about.

Oh there would always be a big fuss. i was just hoping that threads like these would at least makepeople understand better.

And no,its more like it would translate to lower frames at the same re, or lower rez at the same frames. Not enough for both. And games aren't even demanding max power all the time, so its not even going to be constant.

Kinda like how the 2080 super is 11TF and the 2070 super is 9TF, but at 4k one is running red dead at 34fps and the other at 28fps. Mind you, that's like a 10% difference framerate. And those cards even have more things differentiating them than these consoles.



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Intrinsic on 23 March 2020
Evilms said:

DELTA

XBO : 100% / PS4 : 129%

XSX : 100% / PS5 : 102%

Lol.. great table. But I think the memory bandwidth is debatable, like how does one calculate for that considering how weird XSeX handles its memory? I don't think we can just add the bandwidth of both pools in the XSX ram and divide it by two.



SvennoJ on 23 March 2020
Intrinsic said:
m0ney said:

15% difference in power translates into a few frames, I don't know what the big fuss is about.

Oh there would always be a big fuss. i was just hoping that threads like these would at least makepeople understand better.

And no,its more like it would translate to lower frames at the same re, or lower rez at the same frames. Not enough for both. And games aren't even demanding max power all the time, so its not even going to be constant.

Kinda like how the 2080 super is 11TF and the 2070 super is 9TF, but at 4k one is running red dead at 34fps and the other at 28fps. Mind you, that's like a 10% difference framerate. And those cards even have more things differentiating them than these consoles.

DF articles will be funny. They already have frame rate graphs for judder but now need two versions one with VRR and one synced, and they'll need resolution over time graphs, plus some way to measure draw distance level of detail variances, load times. Plus a lot of extremely zoomed in detail pictures :p

But eh, it serves its purpose. Keeps 3rd party devs on their toes not to slack off on one console. The more similar the consoles, the easier it is just to go for a lazy port, or simple slider tweak. It all depends what the lead console is going to be, or maybe it will just be PC and ported to both.



LudicrousSpeed on 23 March 2020
Intrinsic said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
Barring shoddy optimization, XSX games should look better and run better. PS5 games should load a couple seconds faster. Not a large difference, though I want to see how devs use the variance in power on PS5. For all we know, the small difference on paper between 12 and 10.3 can become larger once PS5 is running demanding games or depending on how devs utilize the setup.

That’s why all along I have been more excited about QoL features and enhancements. The load times already will be great on both consoles. Quick resume on the XSX demo they showed is, for me, amazing. I cycle through six or seven games usually and some of them are online MP games so I doubt they’ll work flawlessly, but the SP games will be great to jump right back in.

Adding HDR to Xbone games that didn’t support it, free upgrades to XSX versions of Xbone games, enhanced BC for Xbone games, etc, those are the things that outside of power jumps, are most exciting imho. When the fuck is Sony going to showcase theirs

The looking better and running better is debatable. As far as running is concerned, I believe there will be no difference between the two. There isn't enough of a difference in GPU, CPU and RAM bandwidth between them to make for anything more than a 20% overall advantage or the XSX. It's not like the XSX will be able to have higher rez textures or more geometry or run any effect that the PS5 can't. 

That's why it comes down to resolution. And this is where the debatable comes in when talking about looking better. Looking better, in this case, wouldn't mean that you aren't looking at an identical game between both platforms. It would just mean that one runs at 2160p "more of the time" than the other. Both will hit that 2160p rez, but one could be running at it 100% of the time while the other runs at that rez for only 80% of the time and drops to like 2052p for 20% of the time.

And as I mentioned earlier the ceiling and floor are already very high. We aren't going to be saying ok this one is at 2160p while the other is at 1800p or even 1440p. When there are drops, we would be looking at drops to like 2052p. So yes, technically at that point the XSX still running at 2160p looks better, but not noticeably so.

Funny enough, where the PS5 does have an edge (those QoL) features you mention, are what would actually be more obvious (albeit not that important either). It would be like 1 second to go from the lobby into the game on PS5 vs 2/3secs on the XSX type stuff. Or 2 seconds to switch between games on the PS5 vs 5 seconds on the XSX.

On a side note, I am not buying a lot of the stuff MSis saying they are doing or adding to BC. Maybe my understanding of these things are limited, but you can't just add HDR to content that wasn't mastered in HDR. You can kind like change the luminosity levels of the overall damage (basically dialing contrast and brightness to 11), but unless they are going and tweaking the output file of every single game in their library, you can't just make something that wasn't mastered in HDR suddenly be HDR. You can't just give the render engine of every game an output pixel depth f 10bit from 8bit.

The looking and running better is the only part of all of this that isn’t debatable. The XSX, even when the PS5 is maxed out in GPU and CPU, is more powerful. That’s ignoring the fact that the PS5 will see drops in power when the CPU or GPU is throttled. This is the area where there can be debate, and until we actually see games running and see how devs handle the variable power levels, all we know for sure is that the PS5 will drop from that max level.

I didn’t say there’d be a huge difference in graphics or how smoothly games run, I even said not a large difference. But the difference will still be there, because the XSX is more powerful, even when the PS5 is maxed out, which it won’t always be.

The QoL things I mentioned, it isn’t obvious PS5 will have them or do them better because Sony hasn’t shown anything. None of the stuff I touched on has been discussed by Sony. We don’t know how PS5 will enhance BC games or even what games will work with BC. We don’t know how Sony will handle remasters. We dont know how the resume functionality will work on PS5. Still waiting on Sony to give us info on these things.

I trust what MS says regarding BC enhancements. They haven’t failed us yet.



sales2099 on 23 March 2020

Ya I know both consoles are still close together. Think most of us know that. You look at the spec sheets side by side and clearly almost every category has a edge to Series X. Console war fans just doing their thing like they always do

That said it’s the little things that make Series X superior: Smart Delivery (free next gen upgrades), last gen controller support, quick resume and FULL BC (360 and Xbox in addition to Xbox One).

Last edited by sales2099 - on 23 March 2020

Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

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Evilms on 23 March 2020
Intrinsic said:
Evilms said:

DELTA

XBO : 100% / PS4 : 129%

XSX : 100% / PS5 : 102%

Lol.. great table. But I think the memory bandwidth is debatable, like how does one calculate for that considering how weird XSeX handles its memory? I don't think we can just add the bandwidth of both pools in the XSX ram and divide it by two.

PS5 16 GB GDDR6 @ 14 Gbit/s + 256 Bit

16 GB @ 1750 MHz = 448 GB/s

Xbox Series X 16 GB GDDR6@  14 Gbit/s + 320 Bit

10 GB @ 1750 MHz = 560 GB/s

6 GB @ 1050 MHz = 336 GB/s

For third party developers ease will always be the best choice for them : constant bandwidth > divided



DonFerrari on 23 March 2020
LudicrousSpeed said:
Barring shoddy optimization, XSX games should look better and run better. PS5 games should load a couple seconds faster. Not a large difference, though I want to see how devs use the variance in power on PS5. For all we know, the small difference on paper between 12 and 10.3 can become larger once PS5 is running demanding games or depending on how devs utilize the setup.

That’s why all along I have been more excited about QoL features and enhancements. The load times already will be great on both consoles. Quick resume on the XSX demo they showed is, for me, amazing. I cycle through six or seven games usually and some of them are online MP games so I doubt they’ll work flawlessly, but the SP games will be great to jump right back in.

Adding HDR to Xbone games that didn’t support it, free upgrades to XSX versions of Xbone games, enhanced BC for Xbone games, etc, those are the things that outside of power jumps, are most exciting imho. When the fuck is Sony going to showcase theirs

The confusing aspect of the several games on quick resume is that with SSD taking 3-10 seconds to load then even without this feature the loading of several games would almost be the same wouldn`t it? It would be more of a question of saving game management.

But I really like the idea of the several games being able to resume at once.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Intrinsic on 23 March 2020
LudicrousSpeed said:

The looking and running better is the only part of all of this that isn’t debatable. The XSX, even when the PS5 is maxed out in GPU and CPU, is more powerful. That’s ignoring the fact that the PS5 will see drops in power when the CPU or GPU is throttled. This is the area where there can be debate, and until we actually see games running and see how devs handle the variable power levels, all we know for sure is that the PS5 will drop from that max level.

I didn’t say there’d be a huge difference in graphics or how smoothly games run, I even said not a large difference. But the difference will still be there, because the XSX is more powerful, even when the PS5 is maxed out, which it won’t always be.

The QoL things I mentioned, it isn’t obvious PS5 will have them or do them better because Sony hasn’t shown anything. None of the stuff I touched on has been discussed by Sony. We don’t know how PS5 will enhance BC games or even what games will work with BC. We don’t know how Sony will handle remasters. We dont know how the resume functionality will work on PS5. Still waiting on Sony to give us info on these things.

I trust what MS says regarding BC enhancements. They haven’t failed us yet.

Yeah, I agree. 

On the BC HDR stuff, I am not saying they aren't going to do something... I just don't believe its actual real HDR. Because based on how I understand HDR to work it wouldn't be possible. But that's not saying they can't just tweak the color profile in their BC output renderer increasing the contrast and brightness of all BC titles and calling it HDR.

All those other QoL features, I wouldn't worry about stuff like that. Because sony hasn't said anything doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. 



DonFerrari on 23 March 2020
Intrinsic said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
Barring shoddy optimization, XSX games should look better and run better. PS5 games should load a couple seconds faster. Not a large difference, though I want to see how devs use the variance in power on PS5. For all we know, the small difference on paper between 12 and 10.3 can become larger once PS5 is running demanding games or depending on how devs utilize the setup.

That’s why all along I have been more excited about QoL features and enhancements. The load times already will be great on both consoles. Quick resume on the XSX demo they showed is, for me, amazing. I cycle through six or seven games usually and some of them are online MP games so I doubt they’ll work flawlessly, but the SP games will be great to jump right back in.

Adding HDR to Xbone games that didn’t support it, free upgrades to XSX versions of Xbone games, enhanced BC for Xbone games, etc, those are the things that outside of power jumps, are most exciting imho. When the fuck is Sony going to showcase theirs

The looking better and running better is debatable. As far as running is concerned, I believe there will be no difference between the two. There isn't enough of a difference in GPU, CPU and RAM bandwidth between them to make for anything more than a 20% overall advantage or the XSX. It's not like the XSX will be able to have higher rez textures or more geometry or run any effect that the PS5 can't. 

That's why it comes down to resolution. And this is where the debatable comes in when talking about looking better. Looking better, in this case, wouldn't mean that you aren't looking at an identical game between both platforms. It would just mean that one runs at 2160p "more of the time" than the other. Both will hit that 2160p rez, but one could be running at it 100% of the time while the other runs at that rez for only 80% of the time and drops to like 2052p for 20% of the time.

And as I mentioned earlier the ceiling and floor are already very high. We aren't going to be saying ok this one is at 2160p while the other is at 1800p or even 1440p. When there are drops, we would be looking at drops to like 2052p. So yes, technically at that point the XSX still running at 2160p looks better, but not noticeably so.

Funny enough, where the PS5 does have an edge (those QoL) features you mention, are what would actually be more obvious (albeit not that important either). It would be like 1 second to go from the lobby into the game on PS5 vs 2/3secs on the XSX type stuff. Or 2 seconds to switch between games on the PS5 vs 5 seconds on the XSX.

On a side note, I am not buying a lot of the stuff MSis saying they are doing or adding to BC. Maybe my understanding of these things are limited, but you can't just add HDR to content that wasn't mastered in HDR. You can kind like change the luminosity levels of the overall damage (basically dialing contrast and brightness to 11), but unless they are going and tweaking the output file of every single game in their library, you can't just make something that wasn't mastered in HDR suddenly be HDR. You can't just give the render engine of every game an output pixel depth f 10bit from 8bit.

I`m curious and excited about what Xbox Series X will be able to do with the BC upgrading, including HDR (that is probably some very good algorithm to repack and do a good implementation of HDR, res, texture, fps, etc). It can be great.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Intrinsic on 23 March 2020
DonFerrari said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
Barring shoddy optimization, XSX games should look better and run better. PS5 games should load a couple seconds faster. Not a large difference, though I want to see how devs use the variance in power on PS5. For all we know, the small difference on paper between 12 and 10.3 can become larger once PS5 is running demanding games or depending on how devs utilize the setup.

That’s why all along I have been more excited about QoL features and enhancements. The load times already will be great on both consoles. Quick resume on the XSX demo they showed is, for me, amazing. I cycle through six or seven games usually and some of them are online MP games so I doubt they’ll work flawlessly, but the SP games will be great to jump right back in.

Adding HDR to Xbone games that didn’t support it, free upgrades to XSX versions of Xbone games, enhanced BC for Xbone games, etc, those are the things that outside of power jumps, are most exciting imho. When the fuck is Sony going to showcase theirs

The confusing aspect of the several games on quick resume is that with SSD taking 3-10 seconds to load then even without this feature the loading of several games would almost be the same wouldn`t it? It would be more of a question of saving game management.

But I really like the idea of the several games being able to resume at once.

Yh.. and technically there is a difference between loading into the main menu in 3-10 seconds and resuming from where you left off in 3-10 seconds.

And I believe game to resume in the current-gen was better or faster on the PS4 than it was in the XB1, so at least sony seems to have a handle on that issue. Unles somehow sony get and fucks something up I dn't see how they don't have a faster game resume feature than the XSX.