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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Difficulty vs Accessibility: A responsibility for the developers, not for the players.

Nautilus said:
Ka-pi96 said:

True, and as a fan of turn based strategy games I definitely know that from personal experience too

You don't need to appeal to everybody, no game will be able to do that. But if there are people that like almost everything about your game but don't enjoy it because of the difficulty, then you screwed up. It's as simple as that. Adding difficulty levels shouldn't be hard, and it certainly isn't going to ruin the game for other people.

I mean, look at FIFA. That's a game that some people are ridiculously good at and play professionally, does the fact that the beginner difficulty is easy enough for even a 3 year old to win at ruin that game for those people? Absolutely not, they just play on legendary difficulty (or more likely online multiplayer) instead. Or as I said I'm a fan of strategy games and Civilization has like 10 difficulty levels, that just makes the game better. Not only does it mean more people can enjoy it, but it also means that as you get better you can up the difficulty and still be challenged.

That logic is so flawed.If I like everything about a racing game(its graphics, atmosphere, story, RPG systems and so on) except the driving itself, it means that the devs screwed up?

Is it so hard to understand that some people just like it hard, and to make a truly hard game, it needs to be made hard from a level design point of view, which simply makes it impossible to have multiple levels of difficulty because its either financially prohibitive, or simply because the devs dont want to?

And I mean, regarding some things that I have seen written here: If the first Dark Souls had ssell well, but then the sequel had done badly, then that would have sent a message that yeah, the public hated the difficulty and just a tiny portion of gamers liked that way.But with every new From games, they jusst sell more and more, with Sekiro selling more than 4 million units, recalling from the top of my head.And thats in less than one year.And Im not even mentioning Nioh, Code Vein, Dead Cells, etc.

Well yes, the Project cars devs screwed up adding terrible controller support. Result, PC2 no buy. It could have been a good series but they want to cater to wheel users only. So be it.

Gamers always want bigger and better, higher budgets, better graphics, yet then they also don't want more people to enjoy their games. Meanwhile complaining that the masses just play Call of Duty and Fortnight. It didn't hurt TW3 one bit to expand to consoles and include different difficulty levels to increase their audience.

Anyway, there are plenty other things to play. I wouldn't mind exploring the world of Sekiro or any of the other games you mentioned. However I still have Bloodborne waiting to be played and it seems more and more unlikely I'll ever have the focus and time again to git gud just for the sake of enjoying the art and work that went into the game.



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Ka-pi96 said:

I challenge you to present a single example that couldn't be made easier/more difficult very easily if the devs wanted to. Seriously, do it!

Racing games = increases/decrease player/AI top speed/acceleration stats
Action games = adjust health/damage stats for the player/enemies
RPG games = adjust player/enemy stats, increases/decrease exp gain rate or enemy encounter freqeuency/size of encounters
Platformers = adjust player jump height, make gaps narrower/wider, increase/decrease enemy frequency, increase/decrease how often health/life items are found
Strategy games = Give boosts/penalties to player/AI economy, increase/decrease unit stats
Sports games = increase/decrease stats, adjust the RNG factor on player/AI actions

And since you are also the one judging, you will basically dismiss everything because it doesn't suit your narrative.

Racing games are not only about the AI. But it doesn't even matter.

What happened between SNES - PS2 era

Racing Games = why create a good AI, just make a regular one and if you want some challenge, go try to get the best times in time trials!

Action Games = why create some harder difficulty, some don't use some weapons/upgrades!

RPG games = why create harder boss, just do the game underlevelled!

Platformers = why create difficult games, just find some extra challenges yourself!

Strategy games = why create a difficult AI, just play against humans!

Sports games = why create a difficult AI, just play against humans!

In Gran Turismo, the licenses went from hard to lol. So more players can experience the game they said. 

Action Games, I don't have any example, I don't play this type of game.

Final Fantasy, I remember having troubles in the last dungeons in Breath of Fire 2. In 2020, we are trying to find how to beat the final secret bosses at the lowest level possible.

Platformers, from TMT making us cry blood tears to games for kids.

Strategy games, they don't even try to make better AIs anymore.

Sport games, the last FIFA on the hardest difficulty is a joke.



Ka-pi96 said:
Alcyon said:

And since you are also the one judging, you will basically dismiss everything because it doesn't suit your narrative.

Racing games are not only about the AI. But it doesn't even matter.

What happened between SNES - PS2 era

Racing Games = why create a good AI, just make a regular one and if you want some challenge, go try to get the best times in time trials!

Action Games = why create some harder difficulty, some don't use some weapons/upgrades!

RPG games = why create harder boss, just do the game underlevelled!

Platformers = why create difficult games, just find some extra challenges yourself!

Strategy games = why create a difficult AI, just play against humans!

Sports games = why create a difficult AI, just play against humans!

In Gran Turismo, the licenses went from hard to lol. So more players can experience the game they said. 

Action Games, I don't have any example, I don't play this type of game.

Final Fantasy, I remember having troubles in the last dungeons in Breath of Fire 2. In 2020, we are trying to find how to beat the final secret bosses at the lowest level possible.

Platformers, from TMT making us cry blood tears to games for kids.

Strategy games, they don't even try to make better AIs anymore.

Sport games, the last FIFA on the hardest difficulty is a joke.

What are you even trying to say here? If you read my previous posts you'll see that I said games that were too easy and too hard were BOTH hallmarks of bad developers. So, are you agreeing with me, or what?

Yeah, devs usually take the lazy way of giving the player and/or AI cheats rather than actually creating better/worse versions of the AI. Can't really blame them for that though since actually making different/better AI would likely just lose them money. Those that can't be arsed to even use the lazy way of offering different difficulty options though... just aren't doing their job very well.

So we had only bad developpers for almost 2 generations, since ALL games were too easy.

Again, if you find a game too difficult for you, just skip it. The only reason why these games exist today is because the difficulty disappeared. Why? Slippery slope, the developpers are not punished (in sales) if they don't implement a hard difficulty.

again, and again: if you find Sekiro too hard, don't buy it. But the difficulty was a reason of the good sales.



Nautilus said:
mysteryman said:
Cheat codes are fun.

They can also serve as an additional point of entry to the 'true' game, by allowing an unskilled player the chance to learn the game mechanics at their own pace without the stress of dying.

Or just let players break the game for their own amusement.

None of this affects you, let everyone enjoy games as they please.

But if a developer dont want to, because that's how they designed their game, why should it have cheat codes or an easy mode?

It's not a matter of having fun or not;Clearly people are having fun with those games.With each new entry, From is selling more and more.Code Vein just reported that it sold more than 1 million units, and Dead Cells is a huge success.

Its a matter of just the game itself not being appealing to these gamers in particular.Much like I dont like racing game in general and I can do nothing about this, nothing can be done to tailor these games to people that dont like the challenge.That's all.

Cheat codes don't impact any of this.



Nautilus said:
DonFerrari said:
Yes we are still at the same point where Souls player really don't want the game to have easier option so they can keep to themselves "clearing the game".
And will fully ignore that what is considered difficult to his ability can be really tonned down to another person and would be about as difficult to that person as it is for you without tonning down.
I know that if I kept forcing myself in Nioh I would finish it, I cleared like 3 worlds of the game, but it is so boring, tedious and slow to evolve and do decent damage that I simply stopped playing. While God of War I liked the game so much that even dying much more than on Nioh (but keeping my items and evolution in a better way) I was able to platinum it on very hard, and Spider Man and RDR were easy enough to clear both on hardest dying just a couple times. Uncharted is a game where the hardest difficult are also enjoyable and they still offer very easy options that doesn't prevent me from enjoying all the other options.
But I can understand people that would play the easier options and then tarnish the game for it not being great.
Still the problem with Souls game is the monotonous and long battle with rolling all over, parrying, etc coupled with the stamina bar, I have zero enjoyment on that.

It seems to me that your rpoblem with it is more about how these games play out, rather than the difficulty itself.Which is fine, not every game appeals to everyone.

Yep, I don't like the style of the game but acknowledge the need of it existing to serve the more than 1M fans of it.

But it certainly could have some tweaks on difficult setting to increase the number of people that would try it and probably love.

Chazore said:
Ka-pi96 said:
eh, as far as I'm concerned games that are either too hard or too easy (don't know why you're not including that in the OP, since it's definitely an issue too) are just hallmarks of bad developers. If you either don't care enough, or simply aren't good enough, to make games that allow for people of a variety of play styles/skill levels to enjoy the game then you clearly aren't as good at making games as you think are.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it.

If a game is trying to be bone crushingly difficult, to a point where it ultimately frustrates a use, and causes them to put the game down, then I would easily sum that up to bad game design. 

I know a few here would like to argue differently, but I'd also argue they know very little on how others perceive challenges differently from them. Life itself is considered one of the hardest of challenges, and well, our species works day in and out to make life "easier" for one another, instead of staying stuck in the same spot for centuries (like not including an option or the will to switch said difficulty).

People that think a game has to live by one difficulty setting, and that it's "tough tiddies" to change things up, then really they are no better than old guard gatekeepers, and well, gatekeepers in general are a loathsome lot.

I can understand a game being watered down, but allowing for very basic, very well known, very common staple options for a video game, isn't something that waters it down for everyone else. You just play the game on the difficulty you desire, and leave everyone else alone in their own ventures. 

I do find the Souls influence annoying though, because slowly over the past decade, it's been changing devs from those who allow for innovative and open designs, to "you die once game over" concepts, as well as mechanics that slow you down or try to make you look like some rich man's "whipping boy" (by that I specifically mean the combat mechanics of "commit to action").

DonFerrari said:
Yes we are still at the same point where Souls player really don't want the game to have easier option so they can keep to themselves "clearing the game".
And will fully ignore that what is considered difficult to his ability can be really tonned down to another person and would be about as difficult to that person as it is for you without tonning down.
I know that if I kept forcing myself in Nioh I would finish it, I cleared like 3 worlds of the game, but it is so boring, tedious and slow to evolve and do decent damage that I simply stopped playing. While God of War I liked the game so much that even dying much more than on Nioh (but keeping my items and evolution in a better way) I was able to platinum it on very hard, and Spider Man and RDR were easy enough to clear both on hardest dying just a couple times. Uncharted is a game where the hardest difficult are also enjoyable and they still offer very easy options that doesn't prevent me from enjoying all the other options.
But I can understand people that would play the easier options and then tarnish the game for it not being great.
Still the problem with Souls game is the monotonous and long battle with rolling all over, parrying, etc coupled with the stamina bar, I have zero enjoyment on that.

I find repetitive tasks and mission structures similar to said tasks to being completely boring in a lot of games these days. It's why I'm still waiting for that RPG or MMO game to come out, that doesn't require me to fetch something for someone, or gather X amount of Y, or pressing/flipping X amount of buttons/switches at any given location, because you're apparently the only person allowed to do such a thing. I find those aspects scattered around a myriad of those two genres, that they more or less take over the missions/tasks that are actually fun and have some depth to them.

I look at Souls combat like I look at Fencing. It has some style, but like fencing it becomes predictable, and that becomes a bore, as well as something that cannot really evolve (fencing itself is defined by a very tight rule-set, and it hasn't exactly evolved in a massive way for centuries now).

A game that doesn't treat me like I'm the saviour of all humanity or a chump, is a game I'll likely keep playing.

There are those that can play the game on an easier setting and complain about it, but really they could just crank up the difficulty to a point where it suits their gameplay comfort zone.

If I hate griding, fetch and several open world features =p

On the last comment you made, I was just pointing that some people will threat a game as bad because they decided to play it easy (and won't change the difficult), some people aren't very bright.

Alcyon said:
Ka-pi96 said:

What are you even trying to say here? If you read my previous posts you'll see that I said games that were too easy and too hard were BOTH hallmarks of bad developers. So, are you agreeing with me, or what?

Yeah, devs usually take the lazy way of giving the player and/or AI cheats rather than actually creating better/worse versions of the AI. Can't really blame them for that though since actually making different/better AI would likely just lose them money. Those that can't be arsed to even use the lazy way of offering different difficulty options though... just aren't doing their job very well.

So we had only bad developpers for almost 2 generations, since ALL games were too easy.

Again, if you find a game too difficult for you, just skip it. The only reason why these games exist today is because the difficulty disappeared. Why? Slippery slope, the developpers are not punished (in sales) if they don't implement a hard difficulty.

again, and again: if you find Sekiro too hard, don't buy it. But the difficulty was a reason of the good sales.

Since all games for these 2 gens were so easy would you mind showing your playstation profile with all the platinum you have for crushing these easy games?



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Having played the Dark Souls Switch version over the past summer....and being strangely addicted to it. I actually felt that the game was brilliant in every aspect of its design. I didn't really find it hard, it was a game designed for repetitive play in which you would learn enemy patterns and get stronger yourself via grinding (or farming souls). I died many times, but it never felt cheap, and even in the face of what seemed insurmountable odds in some boss battles, some times a quick change in strategy paid dividends, sometimes just leaving that particular boss alone and venturing in another direction led to character progression and better equipment which eventually made the former boss battle an easier one.

The thing that I loved the most about DS, is the fact that it didn't hold my hand. It trusted me to figured it out, and I did. It was the most satisfying gaming experience that I had played in years. Breath of the Wild (a more 'mainstream' game ) might have been influenced somewhat by DS, in the sense that there was less hand holding than before, and the first few hours really had you on survival mode. The DLC has that Master Sword Quest, which really tests your patience, creative thinking and skill, in order to get through the 3 stages.

I really believe that as long as it is expertly designed, if a game is meant to be challenging, it should be developed that way. To be honest DS wasn't more difficult than the old school NES, GEN, SNES games like Ninja Gaiden, and even Sonic 2 ( run out of lives in the last boss battle and it is back to square one as there was no saving) it just didn't feature any hand holding, and presented a genuine challenge which is something missing in many AAA games in modern times.

Last edited by SammyGiireal - on 12 February 2020

Since all games for these 2 gens were so easy would you mind showing your playstation profile with all the platinum you have for crushing these easy games?

So you consider quantity instead of quality? Wonderful, I understand why you struggle to understand why we consider that games are easier today.

With that being said, developers are not obligated to provide a lower-difficulty mode, and I do think there's plenty of merit in having a good challenge in a game. I personally don't want to simply breeze through a game. However, the existence of an "easy" mode (or other optional assists) shouldn't be viewed as a negative. Multiple difficulty levels does not inherently detract from the experience, and a game is not all the lesser for having them. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting to start off on a lower difficulty so they can practice and "git gud" without things getting too frustrating, or even being able to (heaven forbid!) have a more casual experience. There's too many elitist gamers that want their hobby to be as exclusive as possible. If there are difficulty levels, then the "hardcore" players can play on the harder difficulty level, simple as that. And I do think more games with multiple difficulty levels would be nice. I'm days away from turning 40. I don't have the time I used to have, and honestly my reaction time isn't what it was (my muscular dystrophy may be contributing to that as well). But even if a hard game doesn't have an easier mode, I'll still try to practice, assuming it's not too frustrating.

I am 38, so we are from the same generation. I don't have an issue with games having different level of difficulty, I have issues with crybabies complaining that Dark Souls or Sekiro don't have an eay mode. And the crybabies will write pages and pages on why most games, in general, should have an easy mode but never explain why a specific game must have an easy mode. I can also explain why books in general should be translated, but that doesn't explain why the book "la disparition" (a french book) should be. And the whole idea is stupid: the book with written with the letter e, translating the story would defeat the purpose of the book itself.

I just finished Hollow Knight. The difficulty of the game can be cut in 2 categories

1) Lack of direction

2) Boss fights

Let's talk about the game pre-DLCs.

Giving more "hints" would defeat the purpose of the game. A big part of the game is exploring areas, finding new powers to get acess to new areas. For the boss fights, having more health/doing more damage wouldn't help much, and you can do that by getting the upgrades. So what would an easy mode achieve? Giving you the ability to face tank the bosses earlier in the game?

warned pi-guy for flaming

Last edited by the-pi-guy - on 13 February 2020

Alcyon said:

Final Fantasy, I remember having troubles in the last dungeons in Breath of Fire 2.

The last dungeons of BoF 2 were a walk in the park with my characters that had 255's and 511's across the board. Git gud.



Speaking of difficulty and all that jazz, a modder on PC just released a mod for REmake 2, in that it allows for head-shots to be instant, permanent kills for zombies. They've also offered two variants of the mod, where one just goes with the insta kill head-shots, while the other does the former, but also makes ammo/first aid way more scarce, giving players options of difficulty.



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Alcyon said:

Since all games for these 2 gens were so easy would you mind showing your playstation profile with all the platinum you have for crushing these easy games?

So you consider quantity instead of quality? Wonderful, I understand why you struggle to understand why we consider that games are easier today.

With that being said, developers are not obligated to provide a lower-difficulty mode, and I do think there's plenty of merit in having a good challenge in a game. I personally don't want to simply breeze through a game. However, the existence of an "easy" mode (or other optional assists) shouldn't be viewed as a negative. Multiple difficulty levels does not inherently detract from the experience, and a game is not all the lesser for having them. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting to start off on a lower difficulty so they can practice and "git gud" without things getting too frustrating, or even being able to (heaven forbid!) have a more casual experience. There's too many elitist gamers that want their hobby to be as exclusive as possible. If there are difficulty levels, then the "hardcore" players can play on the harder difficulty level, simple as that. And I do think more games with multiple difficulty levels would be nice. I'm days away from turning 40. I don't have the time I used to have, and honestly my reaction time isn't what it was (my muscular dystrophy may be contributing to that as well). But even if a hard game doesn't have an easier mode, I'll still try to practice, assuming it's not too frustrating.

I am 38, so we are from the same generation. I don't have an issue with games having different level of difficulty, I have issues with crybabies complaining that Dark Souls or Sekiro don't have an eay mode. And the crybabies will write pages and pages on why most games, in general, should have an easy mode but never explain why a specific game must have an easy mode. I can also explain why books in general should be translated, but that doesn't explain why the book "la disparition" (a french book) should be. And the whole idea is stupid: the book with written with the letter e, translating the story would defeat the purpose of the book itself.

I just finished Hollow Knight. The difficulty of the game can be cut in 2 categories

1) Lack of direction

2) Boss fights

Let's talk about the game pre-DLCs.

Giving more "hints" would defeat the purpose of the game. A big part of the game is exploring areas, finding new powers to get acess to new areas. For the boss fights, having more health/doing more damage wouldn't help much, and you can do that by getting the upgrades. So what would an easy mode achieve? Giving you the ability to face tank the bosses earlier in the game?

Where did I say it needed to be 300 games? I'll take you don't have much to show for your elitism right?

Chazore said:
Speaking of difficulty and all that jazz, a modder on PC just released a mod for REmake 2, in that it allows for head-shots to be instant, permanent kills for zombies. They've also offered two variants of the mod, where one just goes with the insta kill head-shots, while the other does the former, but also makes ammo/first aid way more scarce, giving players options of difficulty.

I cringe with the 10 headshots and enemy still doing fine. I can accept that you may need 2 or 3 shots on the knee to down an enemy, but over 2 HS to kill is wrong. Sure make bullets less available but sponge zombies (you take 3 hits wherever it is you die, 10 HS on regular zombie and he is still coming) is BS that just serve to both make you always be starving (because the more bullets you have the less damage you do) and also trap you when Mr. X is circling you.



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http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

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Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."