Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Sakurai: Smash Bros has too many Fire Emblem characters and sword users

CaptainExplosion said:
OTBWY said:
Echoes are the problem. They should have not included Lucina or Chrom.

Or at least make them more unique. Lucina is just lady Marth and Chrom is just Roy with Ike's Up Special.

I wish.

Chrom is Roy with Marth's range, Marth's tipper killpower, and a much, much, much, much better version of Ike's up special that deals a whopping 26% damage (TWENTY-SIX PERCENT) and can kill opponents at 0% even when they're onstage sometimes.

Lucina is also dumb, but not Chrom level dumb.



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mZuzek said:
CaptainExplosion said:

Or at least make them more unique. Lucina is just lady Marth and Chrom is just Roy with Ike's Up Special.

I wish.

Chrom is Roy with Marth's range, Marth's tipper killpower, and a much, much, much, much better version of Ike's up special that deals a whopping 26% damage (TWENTY-SIX PERCENT) and can kill opponents at 0% even when they're onstage sometimes.

Lucina is also dumb, but not Chrom level dumb.

You forgot how Marth, Roy and Lucina have the same Final Smash.



He's right.



Umm...Sakurai has picked most characters for Smash. So he thinks that there wouldn't be too many Fire Emblem and sword characters if Corrin and Byleth were cut? There would still be too many.



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

PS4: 130 mil (was 100 million) Xbox One: 55 mil (was 50 mil) Switch: 110 million (was 73, then 96 million)

3DS: 75.5 mil (was 73, then 77 million)

"Let go your earthly tether, enter the void, empty and become wind." - Guru Laghima

Frankly I think it's amazing they managed to get so many crossover characters into Fire Emblem Ultimate.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series X will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

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OTBWY said:
Echoes are the problem. They should have not included Lucina or Chrom.

And them not being there would improve things... how?

mZuzek said:
CaptainExplosion said:

Or at least make them more unique. Lucina is just lady Marth and Chrom is just Roy with Ike's Up Special.

I wish.

Chrom is Roy with Marth's range, Marth's tipper killpower, and a much, much, much, much better version of Ike's up special that deals a whopping 26% damage (TWENTY-SIX PERCENT) and can kill opponents at 0% even when they're onstage sometimes.

Lucina is also dumb, but not Chrom level dumb.

Yeah but... no?  Marth's tip Fsmash will kill from the center of FD at 70.  Chrom's won't until 90.  His power is like slightly above average.  Up B is a nice OOS option, but mediocre at best for recovery.  And unlike Ike, he doesn't have a horizontal recovery move, so his recovery options are very limited.  For every time that you get a weird gimp kill with it, there's probably at least ten times that you die because of your linear recovery.  Neither Chrom or Lucina has been placing especially well at tournaments, and most top players consider them high tier at best.  Can't see anything that destroys the balance of the game from them.  



JWeinCom said:
mZuzek said:

I wish.

Chrom is Roy with Marth's range, Marth's tipper killpower, and a much, much, much, much better version of Ike's up special that deals a whopping 26% damage (TWENTY-SIX PERCENT) and can kill opponents at 0% even when they're onstage sometimes.

Lucina is also dumb, but not Chrom level dumb.

Yeah but... no?  Marth's tip Fsmash will kill from the center of FD at 70.  Chrom's won't until 90.  His power is like slightly above average.  Up B is a nice OOS option, but mediocre at best for recovery.  And unlike Ike, he doesn't have a horizontal recovery move, so his recovery options are very limited.  For every time that you get a weird gimp kill with it, there's probably at least ten times that you die because of your linear recovery.  Neither Chrom or Lucina has been placing especially well at tournaments, and most top players consider them high tier at best.  Can't see anything that destroys the balance of the game from them.  

They're not quite overpowered, but they are annoying in that they take away all the skill required to play Marth/Roy (not that they require too much to begin with) and have almost no trade-off. They shouldn't be as powerful as they are if they can just hit you from wherever with no need for actually decent spacing. Also cut Chrom's sword down a little, that shit has way too much range.

Chrom isn't as easy to gimp as you say... His recovery is linear, sure, but it has gigantic hitboxes and if you're caught by a single one of them you're dead at 0%. His air dodge also goes ridiculously far. Sure, he is gimpable, but the move is still insanely good, in a way that makes absolutely no sense - how come another character in the game has the exact same move, except slower, weaker, with far less range, and all that in a character who is already much slower than Chrom? Sheesh, it can't be that hard to balance it.

And um, yeah, the Marth tipper thing was an exaggeration, but still. If Chrom hits you with a forward tilt at the ledge it kills at 80%. If he hits you with a jab (A JAB) at the ledge you're dead at 70%. A JAB.



mZuzek said:
JWeinCom said:

Yeah but... no?  Marth's tip Fsmash will kill from the center of FD at 70.  Chrom's won't until 90.  His power is like slightly above average.  Up B is a nice OOS option, but mediocre at best for recovery.  And unlike Ike, he doesn't have a horizontal recovery move, so his recovery options are very limited.  For every time that you get a weird gimp kill with it, there's probably at least ten times that you die because of your linear recovery.  Neither Chrom or Lucina has been placing especially well at tournaments, and most top players consider them high tier at best.  Can't see anything that destroys the balance of the game from them.  

They're not quite overpowered, but they are annoying in that they take away all the skill required to play Marth/Roy (not that they require too much to begin with) and have almost no trade-off. They shouldn't be as powerful as they are if they can just hit you from wherever with no need for actually decent spacing. Also cut Chrom's sword down a little, that shit has way too much range.

Chrom isn't as easy to gimp as you say... His recovery is linear, sure, but it has gigantic hitboxes and if you're caught by a single one of them you're dead at 0%. His air dodge also goes ridiculously far. Sure, he is gimpable, but the move is still insanely good, in a way that makes absolutely no sense - how come another character in the game has the exact same move, except slower, weaker, with far less range, and all that in a character who is already much slower than Chrom? Sheesh, it can't be that hard to balance it.

And um, yeah, the Marth tipper thing was an exaggeration, but still. If Chrom hits you with a forward tilt at the ledge it kills at 80%. If he hits you with a jab (A JAB) at the ledge you're dead at 70%. A JAB.

Ummm yeah... but again no.

I popped into training mode for a second.  Ftilt will kill Mario off the edge of FD at around 110.  Unless there's some sweet spot to the jab I'm missing it doesn't even kill at 400.  Unless you're playing on like a stage with walkoff edges, and in those stages most stuff will KO you at 70%.

Chrom's Up B won't always kill you even if it hits you offstage... which it really shouldn't anyway.  Using it will always kill him though, unless it hits you right at the edge of the stage, in which case you're probably not going to be hit by the spike hitbox. As for Ike, his is a tad slower with the same horizontal range and I think the same vertical range.  But, just because they're similar moves doesn't necessarily mean they have to be balanced the same.  Ike has a horizontal recovery which mitigates the problem of aether as a recovery.  It deals like 5% less, so that's not a huge deal, especially since Ike is killing much faster. And he also has his jab which is a less powerful but much safer OOS option.  Chrom's jab is slower, so without Aether he'd have really no good OOS option aside from grab. 

Annoying is a personal preference.  In my opinion they're not even among the most annoying half of the cast.  But in terms of competitive balance, I can't really see any issue with them. 



JWeinCom said:

Ummm yeah... but again no.

I popped into training mode for a second.  Ftilt will kill Mario off the edge of FD at around 110.  Unless there's some sweet spot to the jab I'm missing it doesn't even kill at 400.  Unless you're playing on like a stage with walkoff edges, and in those stages most stuff will KO you at 70%.

Chrom's Up B won't always kill you even if it hits you offstage... which it really shouldn't anyway.  Using it will always kill him though, unless it hits you right at the edge of the stage, in which case you're probably not going to be hit by the spike hitbox. As for Ike, his is a tad slower with the same horizontal range and I think the same vertical range.  But, just because they're similar moves doesn't necessarily mean they have to be balanced the same.  Ike has a horizontal recovery which mitigates the problem of aether as a recovery.  It deals like 5% less, so that's not a huge deal, especially since Ike is killing much faster. And he also has his jab which is a less powerful but much safer OOS option.  Chrom's jab is slower, so without Aether he'd have really no good OOS option aside from grab. 

Annoying is a personal preference.  In my opinion they're not even among the most annoying half of the cast.  But in terms of competitive balance, I can't really see any issue with them. 

Obviously it's not the jab itself that kills, but it confirms into back air on the entire cast at basically any % you're caught on. It's also super safe to throw out and covers many ledge options, what with its several active frames. Roy also has this, of course, but just as with anything regarding the two characters, it requires far less skill with Chrom - heck, Chrom's extended range means even jab to forward smash can be a kill confirm a lot of the time. And yeah, that kills ridiculously early.

I've been killed by Chrom's up B while on stage more times than I can count. If he's using it near the ledge, the best you can do is to just sit back and accept it, unless you have a good projectile or ridiculous disjoint like Byleth or the Belmonts. It is possible to edgeguard it, but getting killed at 0 is too big a risk. It's the same with Ike's, but Ike's Aether at least has a hitbox that makes some sense.

Also, Ike's Aether isn't a good out of shield option, unlike Chrom's, which is why the 26% is a big deal. Everytime you hit Chrom's shield, you eat 26% for free.



At this point they should just make a smash bro’s spin off with just Fire emblem characters...and only include other franchise characters if they possess a sword lol

(Coming from someone who really enjoys the series)