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Forums - Microsoft - MS: 1st party Xbox games will be cross-gen for "next year, two years"

goopy20 on 21 February 2020
sales2099 said:
goopy20 said:

I never heard of a console gen winner measured by players, but whatever floats your boat. For me the winner is the console with the best exclusives and that usually results in the largest installbase and best 3rd party support. 

There's no need for theories how they are designing Halo Infinite, we already know from 343 themselves that they are making the game for Xone as the base console, and on Series X it will be "plus-plus-plus". It will be exactly like Gears 5, which obviously looks better on X1X and pc, but it's still the exact same game and not a generational leap like imo the next gen games should be. Now, if you say Halo will still be a better game than most ps5 exclusive launch titles, you might be right. But it would have been even better if MS cared about the Series X succeeding in the console space, and used it as a flagship title to push Series X sales, instead of GP subscribers.  

Largest install base is most players. And historically the only way to measure that was who sold the most consoles. Now MS found a loophole to get Xbox players who don’t have a console. So we actually agree that the install base matters, it’s where it comes from that we aren’t on the same page. You are traditionalist and I’m on the progressive side is all, both are valid I suppose.

Gears 5 isn’t a next gen game though so your comparison isn’t exactly valid. And Infinite has a brand new engine designed for next gen hardware. I’ll keep telling you it’s far easier to make the high end version and scale down then build low and go higher. 

This may come as a shock, but MS knows how to market a flagship title for their flagship console and push their subscription service at the same time. Its called having “multiple teams” and a “marketing department”. 

Like I said buddy. As a gamer the install base of a console is only important because it leads to better support for that specific closed platform: more 3rd party exclusives, big budget AAA games etc. PSVR for example has great potential but it never got decent support because the install base wasn't big enough. So yes, from a business perspective it's a great idea to reach a broader audience over a ton of devices but like Phil said, there are trade offs. Like developers not being able to use the Series X as a closed platform, coding to the metal and pushing the hardware to its limits.  

Gears 5 isn't a next gen game but neither is Halo Infinite or any other MS exclusive for the next couple years. However, Gears 5 is the best case scenario for the Series X, as it does an amazing job at scaling and taking advantage of all platforms strengths. So if you believe playing Gears 5 in insane settings, that pushes a 2080Ti to its limits, makes it a next gen game compared to the Xone version, then fine. I just don't agree with that. It obviously looks a lot better, but it's pushing the 2080Ti by using graphics settings that are highly ineffective and use up a ton of resources with a relatively small gain in visuals. It's a typical pc thing and only a very small percentage of gamers think those gains in visuals are worth buying a $1000 gpu over. 

In the end you're still getting the exact same game on high-end pc as on the Xone because the core game was designed around the Xone's limitations. That's the big difference with something like Infamous SS, which wasn't just the ps3 version of Infamous 2 with higher resolution and a shiny coat of painting. It was a completely different game, designed around the ps4's limitations. This allowed Sucker Punch to do things that weren't possible on ps3 and build the whole game around that. This meant meant a complete change in level design, with a much larger map and how you move around in the world, physics, destructible environments, weather effects, super powers designed to push 100.000 particles on screen at once etc. They couldn't just scale it down and release it on ps3 because it would mess up the whole core game play experience. Now, sure you can say that all the tech behind Infamous SS didn't make it a great game, especially compared to GTA5. But Infamous was never that good to begin with. However, don't you think GTA5 would have been even better if it skipped ps3/360? 

I'll just leave this here for the people who think scalable graphics on pc are the same thing as next gen graphics.

      

j

Last edited by goopy20 - on 21 February 2020

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LudicrousSpeed on 21 February 2020

Your goal posts have shifted from true next gen games offering “new experiences not possible on current gen” with advances in AI, physics, geometry, etc at the start of this thread to now just “purty graphics” 😆

I wanna see where they shift to next.



goopy20 on 21 February 2020
LudicrousSpeed said:
Your goal posts have shifted from true next gen games offering “new experiences not possible on current gen” with advances in AI, physics, geometry, etc at the start of this thread to now just “purty graphics” 😆

I wanna see where they shift to next.

How are those screen shots I posted not a gigantic leap in geometry and overall visual fidelity? Even my grandmother would instantly be able to tell the difference between SS and Infamous 2 on the ps3, and she's half blind... While the difference between Gears 5 running on Xone and X1X or pc is a lot more subtle. I would have to ask my granny to sit closer to the screen and explain to her it's 4k and that it now runs at 60fps on X1X and the pc version has better reflections. 

It just seems kinda hopeless to get the difference through to you, but I will try 1 more time. What do you think is the difference between RDR1 vs RDR2 and GTA5 on 360 vs Xone? And do you think they could have released RDR2 on 360/ps3, and keep the core game design and visual fidelity intact if they did?



sales2099 on 21 February 2020
goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

Largest install base is most players. And historically the only way to measure that was who sold the most consoles. Now MS found a loophole to get Xbox players who don’t have a console. So we actually agree that the install base matters, it’s where it comes from that we aren’t on the same page. You are traditionalist and I’m on the progressive side is all, both are valid I suppose.

Gears 5 isn’t a next gen game though so your comparison isn’t exactly valid. And Infinite has a brand new engine designed for next gen hardware. I’ll keep telling you it’s far easier to make the high end version and scale down then build low and go higher. 

This may come as a shock, but MS knows how to market a flagship title for their flagship console and push their subscription service at the same time. Its called having “multiple teams” and a “marketing department”. 

Like I said buddy. As a gamer the install base of a console is only important because it leads to better support for that specific closed platform: more 3rd party exclusives, big budget AAA games etc. PSVR for example has great potential but it never got decent support because the install base wasn't big enough. So yes, from a business perspective it's a great idea to reach a broader audience over a ton of devices but like Phil said, there are trade offs. Like developers not being able to use the Series X as a closed platform, coding to the metal and pushing the hardware to its limits.  

Gears 5 isn't a next gen game but neither is Halo Infinite or any other MS exclusive for the next couple years. However, Gears 5 is the best case scenario for the Series X, as it does an amazing job at scaling and taking advantage of all platforms strengths. So if you believe playing Gears 5 in insane settings, that pushes a 2080Ti to its limits, makes it a next gen game compared to the Xone version, then fine. I just don't agree with that. It obviously looks a lot better, but it's pushing the 2080Ti by using graphics settings that are highly ineffective and use up a ton of resources with a relatively small gain in visuals. It's a typical pc thing and only a very small percentage of gamers think those gains in visuals are worth buying a $1000 gpu over. 

In the end you're still getting the exact same game on high-end pc as on the Xone because the core game was designed around the Xone's limitations. That's the big difference with something like Infamous SS, which wasn't just the ps3 version of Infamous 2 with higher resolution and a shiny coat of painting. It was a completely different game, designed around the ps4's limitations. This allowed Sucker Punch to do things that weren't possible on ps3 and build the whole game around that. This meant meant a complete change in level design, with a much larger map and how you move around in the world, physics, destructible environments, weather effects, super powers designed to push 100.000 particles on screen at once etc. They couldn't just scale it down and release it on ps3 because it would mess up the whole core game play experience. Now, sure you can say that all the tech behind Infamous SS didn't make it a great game, especially compared to GTA5. But Infamous was never that good to begin with. However, don't you think GTA5 would have been even better if it skipped ps3/360? 

I'll just leave this here for the people who think scalable graphics on pc are the same thing as next gen graphics.

__________________________

We established that Sony will neither make most use at launch. Never been done. The launch exclusives only ever give a taste of what’s to come. So really...all you are arguing is that Sony’s launch exclusives will make “slightly” more use but really neither side will make a real use of the hardware. Not to mention the generation gaps like PS2-PS3 are over. So what’s your argument exactly knowing this?

If you think being cross gen disqualifies the game as being next gen, then I guess we will never agree. Despite how easy it is to scale down a next gen game. If this is the only way to preserve the Sony power narrative then lol...it’s quite the reach for that ultimate goal. 

Thing is, you are convinced Halo Infinite will be built around Xbox One as a base? Do you have actual proof over that? Phil saying the game will look great, that’s just to show late adopters that they won’t be gimped. The Slipspace Engine is a brand new engine designed for future Halo titles...if that isn’t next gen I don’t know what is. 

And cmon....Infamous SS is 10000% possible on PS3 if they chose to downgrade it. 

Scaleable graphics, next gen graphics...neither console will show us their best at launch. Quality I’m sure Xbox will get higher metas, but neither company will have the most squeezed potential out the gate...so what’s your point?



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

sales2099 on 21 February 2020
goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
Your goal posts have shifted from true next gen games offering “new experiences not possible on current gen” with advances in AI, physics, geometry, etc at the start of this thread to now just “purty graphics” 😆

I wanna see where they shift to next.

How are those screen shots I posted not a gigantic leap in geometry and overall visual fidelity? Even my grandmother would instantly be able to tell the difference between SS and Infamous 2 on the ps3, and she's half blind... While the difference between Gears 5 running on Xone and X1X or pc is a lot more subtle. I would have to ask my granny to sit closer to the screen and explain to her it's 4k and that it now runs at 60fps on X1X and the pc version has better reflections. 

It just seems kinda hopeless to get the difference through to you, but I will try 1 more time. What do you think is the difference between RDR1 vs RDR2 and GTA5 on 360 vs Xone? And do you think they could have released RDR2 on 360/ps3, and keep the core game design and visual fidelity intact if they did?

One tiiiiinsy little flaw in your argument. RDR2 and GTA5 were late gen games. When devs had the time to really push the potential.

And GTA 5 looks amazing on current gen consoles, truly next gen when put against the 360. Draw distances, graphics, texture quality, texture pop in. And of course RDR2 is possible on 360...just have to heavily downgrade the visuals but it is doable.

Think Witcher 3 on high end PC vs Switch. Care to comment on this example?

Last edited by sales2099 - on 21 February 2020

Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

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goopy20 on 21 February 2020
sales2099 said:
goopy20 said:

How are those screen shots I posted not a gigantic leap in geometry and overall visual fidelity? Even my grandmother would instantly be able to tell the difference between SS and Infamous 2 on the ps3, and she's half blind... While the difference between Gears 5 running on Xone and X1X or pc is a lot more subtle. I would have to ask my granny to sit closer to the screen and explain to her it's 4k and that it now runs at 60fps on X1X and the pc version has better reflections. 

It just seems kinda hopeless to get the difference through to you, but I will try 1 more time. What do you think is the difference between RDR1 vs RDR2 and GTA5 on 360 vs Xone? And do you think they could have released RDR2 on 360/ps3, and keep the core game design and visual fidelity intact if they did?

One tiiiiinsy little flaw in your argument. RDR2 and GTA5 were late gen games. When devs had the time to really push the potential.

And GTA 5 looks amazing on current gen consoles, truly next gen when put against the 360. Draw distances, graphics, texture quality, texture pop in. And of course RDR2 is possible on 360...just have to heavily downgrade the visuals but it is doable.

Think Witcher 3 on high end PC vs Switch. Care to comment on this example?

You fail to grasp the concept of what a true next gen game is. The difference between RDR1 and 2 is that the map is 3 times bigger, they were able to change environments as where RDR1 was mostly desert, better animation and completely new and more complex geometry. GTA5 on the other hand was the exact same game on 360 and Xone but obviously upressed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2EsL6XVnkk



Conina on 21 February 2020
goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

And GTA 5 looks amazing on current gen consoles, truly next gen when put against the 360. Draw distances, graphics, texture quality, texture pop in. And of course RDR2 is possible on 360...just have to heavily downgrade the visuals but it is doable.

GTA5 on the other hand was the exact same game on 360 and Xone but obviously upressed:


View on YouTube

Well, GTA V ain't really held back by the inferior PS3 + 360 versions if you let it use the extra power:


View on YouTube



sales2099 on 21 February 2020
goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

One tiiiiinsy little flaw in your argument. RDR2 and GTA5 were late gen games. When devs had the time to really push the potential.

And GTA 5 looks amazing on current gen consoles, truly next gen when put against the 360. Draw distances, graphics, texture quality, texture pop in. And of course RDR2 is possible on 360...just have to heavily downgrade the visuals but it is doable.

Think Witcher 3 on high end PC vs Switch. Care to comment on this example?

You fail to grasp the concept of what a true next gen game is. The difference between RDR1 and 2 is that the map is 3 times bigger, they were able to change environments as where RDR1 was mostly desert, better animation and completely new and more complex geometry. GTA5 on the other hand was the exact same game on 360 and Xone but obviously upressed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2EsL6XVnkk

That’s nice. Just means 360 and PS3 would have a MUCH higher mandatory download before you play hypothetically. 

Again, what’s your thoughts on Witcher 3 on highest settings possible PC vs the little-engine-that-could Switch?

And again again...what’s your actual point when Sony themselves won’t make the most out of their launch titles?

Edit: Your argument would have merit if Witcher 3 was made “with Switch as the base model and PC was Plus Plus Plus version” :p

Last edited by sales2099 - on 21 February 2020

Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Conina on 21 February 2020

goopy20 said:

Like developers not being able to use the Series X as a closed platform, coding to the metal and pushing the hardware to its limits.  

...

However, don't you think GTA5 would have been even better if it skipped ps3/360? 

The problem is: to "code to the metal" you have to know what the metal is.

When do you think a huge game like GTA V could have been released at the earliest when Rockstar Games only had access to a PS4 or Xbox One since 2012? I doubt it would have release within two years after the PS4/XBO launch with "coding to the metal".



sales2099 on 21 February 2020
Radek said:
sales2099 said:

One tiiiiinsy little flaw in your argument. RDR2 and GTA5 were late gen games. When devs had the time to really push the potential.

And GTA 5 looks amazing on current gen consoles, truly next gen when put against the 360. Draw distances, graphics, texture quality, texture pop in. And of course RDR2 is possible on 360...just have to heavily downgrade the visuals but it is doable.

Think Witcher 3 on high end PC vs Switch. Care to comment on this example?

RDR2 is possible on 360? A console with 512 mb ram? Please just stop saying stupid things.

This doesn't even factor CPU, GPU power, memory bandwidth etc. hell RDR2 is the most demanding PC game as of now... and current consoles already drop frames to low 20's in Saint Denis.

I didn’t say it would be a good port. Throw in a mandatory X gigabyte instal and you should make something like it. Think Witcher 3 highest settings PC vs Switch. The comparison videos and articles on the internet certainly don’t say it’s a mere “resolution and FPS” downgrade. Far from that, yet it’s still the core experience. Go figure :)



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles.