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Blacks aren't the only ones being killed by police.

All Lives Matter covers all lives, not just black lives.

Let me ask a very simple question.  When you see the police kill a white person who is unarmed and that same police officer gets off scott free what exactly do you do about it.  This is the general question, if you do nothing, if you just accept it as status quo then all lives actually do not mean anything to you.  You see, POC have gotten to the point where they are pissed off that it happens and continue to happen in our society.  People that come with the all lives matter are the same people who has ignored this problems for decades.  They did nothing, will do nothing and want to somehow join the party because they do not see an actual issue.  So when you see BLM, think of it as POC saying we are tired of this happening and if the people who want to parade All Lives matter then they need to get off their buts and seek change as well.  Saying that the Police kill white people or any other race is great, but what are you going to do about it.



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Bofferbrauer2 said:
KLAMarine said:

"Shooting is supposed to disable the suspect, not to kill him outright."

>No, shooting is supposed to kill. Tasers and handcuffs are supposed to disable, shooting is for killing. The only way to make certain an armed suspect can no longer fire their weapon is to kill them.

Like I said, that's US policy. Like I said, shooting is normally considered the very last resort, and fatally shooting someone is generally very frowned upon unless it's a hostage situation in most civilized countries (the last one of those happened 22 years ago here btw).

Our policemen and -women are trained to shoot in the legs to incapacitate the suspect, and only if that fails will they even consider shooting to kill. And they will only shoot if the suspect is armed and trying to severely harm or even kill either them or other people around the person. If he isn't armed, they have no right to shoot and would forfeit their badge (and weapons license) instantly and forever if they did. I know this isn't the case in the US, but that's also a big part of the reason why we don't have BLM-like protests here - our policemen don't kill people unless they absolutely have to.

While we're at it, most policemen here are not armed in duty unless they have a special mission which warrants weapon usage (like close protection of our grand-duke or prime minister) and are not allowed to keep their weapon off-duty. This ensures that they will stop and think and try to deescalate or even defuse the situation instead of simply trying to shoot mindlessly like US police seem to be overly happy to do.

Well Luxembourg and the US are not the same country. And I imagine not a lot of black people live in Luxembourg so BLM wouldn't make much sense there.

But here in the US, things can go from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye and I want to show you another video of how quickly things can escalate even when police simply want to pat down for safety's sake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YmVfr6bn-E

forest-spirit said:
KLAMarine said:

"Shooting is supposed to disable the suspect, not to kill him outright."

>No, shooting is supposed to kill. Tasers and handcuffs are supposed to disable, shooting is for killing. The only way to make certain an armed suspect can no longer fire their weapon is to kill them.

Shooting is supposed to kill? Either you're lying/misinformed or the US police is truly fucked up. Yes, there are situations where the police has to aim for the torso, which has a high chance of mortally wounding the suspect, but that's because the torso is easier to hit than legs or arms and the suspect is deemed to dangerous for the police to take any chances. It is not done with the intent of killing.

When confronting an armed suspect, police are going to shoot to kill when threatened with a weapon and rightfully so.

Machiavellian said:

Blacks aren't the only ones being killed by police.

All Lives Matter covers all lives, not just black lives.

Let me ask a very simple question.  When you see the police kill a white person who is unarmed and that same police officer gets off scott free what exactly do you do about it.  This is the general question, if you do nothing, if you just accept it as status quo then all lives actually do not mean anything to you.  You see, POC have gotten to the point where they are pissed off that it happens and continue to happen in our society.  People that come with the all lives matter are the same people who has ignored this problems for decades.  They did nothing, will do nothing and want to somehow join the party because they do not see an actual issue.  So when you see BLM, think of it as POC saying we are tired of this happening and if the people who want to parade All Lives matter then they need to get off their buts and seek change as well.  Saying that the Police kill white people or any other race is great, but what are you going to do about it.

"Let me ask a very simple question.  When you see the police kill a white person who is unarmed and that same police officer gets off scott free what exactly do you do about it."

>I advise the family of the deceased to contact legal help and see where they can proceed from there.

"if the people who want to parade All Lives matter then they need to get off their buts and seek change as well"

>Will you be there to naysay us like you just did in the very same paragraph?

"People that come with the all lives matter are the same people who has ignored this problems for decades.  They did nothing, will do nothing and want to somehow join the party because they do not see an actual issue."



Bofferbrauer2 said:
KLAMarine said:

"Shooting is supposed to disable the suspect, not to kill him outright."

>No, shooting is supposed to kill. Tasers and handcuffs are supposed to disable, shooting is for killing. The only way to make certain an armed suspect can no longer fire their weapon is to kill them.

Like I said, that's US policy. Like I said, shooting is normally considered the very last resort, and fatally shooting someone is generally very frowned upon unless it's a hostage situation in most civilized countries (the last one of those happened 22 years ago here btw).

Our policemen and -women are trained to shoot in the legs to incapacitate the suspect, and only if that fails will they even consider shooting to kill. And they will only shoot if the suspect is armed and trying to severely harm or even kill either them or other people around the person. If he isn't armed, they have no right to shoot and would forfeit their badge (and weapons license) instantly and forever if they did. I know this isn't the case in the US, but that's also a big part of the reason why we don't have BLM-like protests here - our policemen don't kill people unless they absolutely have to.

While we're at it, most policemen here are not armed in duty unless they have a special mission which warrants weapon usage (like close protection of our grand-duke or prime minister) and are not allowed to keep their weapon off-duty. This ensures that they will stop and think and try to deescalate or even defuse the situation instead of simply trying to shoot mindlessly like US police seem to be overly happy to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Luxemburg has a homicide rate per 100.000 inhabitants of 0.30. The United States of America has a homicide rate per capita of 4.96. That's a difference. Homicide rate in the USA is by far not the highest. Amongst western countries it is comparatively high. Mexico is at 29.07 and their police patrols often look like this...

Spoiler!

"Shoot'm in the legs, José!" said no mexican police officer ever.

There might be a correlation between crime rate, availability of firearms to criminals and willingness to use them and the extent to which law enforcement is permitted to use deadly force to stop a threat. Always keep in mind, cops are humans, too. Not only is the permission to use firearms in dangerous situations to ensure puplic safety, but also to make sure expensively trained and hard to replace experienced officers stay unharmed, able to do their job and are willing to do so. Why US cops are so shootyshooty, unload half a magazine, whereas in Germany for example the count of bullets shot by police is lower on average? The same reasons. An incapacitated perpetrator with a knife downed on the ground can't do much. With a gun he/she can still be a deadly threat. A recent event demonstrates it perfectly...

Detroit Police Chief James Craig released video of the officer-involved shooting that left a man dead at McNichols and San Juan.

...

Littleton drew a handgun from his left pocket, fired at police and missed. Three officers returned fire. Littleton continued to fire his weapon as he was on the ground. There were eight shots fired in five seconds, according to Craig. Four of those shots were fired from three officers; one officer fired two shots, one officer fired one shot and another officer fired one shot. Craig says the other four shots were fired by Littleton.

Even though Hakim was hit by one bullet or more and face down, he was still not done and pulled the trigger of his gun a couple of times more.

I imagine US cops are trained to fire this many rounds. It reflects in the use of their firearms in the field. According to training. Needless to say, that doesn't mean it's always justified.

The incident that is referred to in the next video was the (2nd°) murder of Walter Scott.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Walter_Scott



Hunting Season is done...

KLAMarine said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Like I said, that's US policy. Like I said, shooting is normally considered the very last resort, and fatally shooting someone is generally very frowned upon unless it's a hostage situation in most civilized countries (the last one of those happened 22 years ago here btw).

Our policemen and -women are trained to shoot in the legs to incapacitate the suspect, and only if that fails will they even consider shooting to kill. And they will only shoot if the suspect is armed and trying to severely harm or even kill either them or other people around the person. If he isn't armed, they have no right to shoot and would forfeit their badge (and weapons license) instantly and forever if they did. I know this isn't the case in the US, but that's also a big part of the reason why we don't have BLM-like protests here - our policemen don't kill people unless they absolutely have to.

While we're at it, most policemen here are not armed in duty unless they have a special mission which warrants weapon usage (like close protection of our grand-duke or prime minister) and are not allowed to keep their weapon off-duty. This ensures that they will stop and think and try to deescalate or even defuse the situation instead of simply trying to shoot mindlessly like US police seem to be overly happy to do.

Well Luxembourg and the US are not the same country. And I imagine not a lot of black people live in Luxembourg so BLM wouldn't make much sense there.

But here in the US, things can go from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye and I want to show you another video of how quickly things can escalate even when police simply want to pat down for safety's sake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YmVfr6bn-E

Well, we do have about 12% black people living in Luxembourg (most of them capeverdians, but other African regions are quickly growing in numbers). That's about the same number as in the US, which reach 13.4% of the US population.

Still, BLM wouldn't make any sense here - but not due to not being enough black people in the country, but rather because there are no policies which would warrant any protests by colored people. We have no racial profiling of any kind (strictly outlawed) or even consider different skin colors as a different race to begin with. There are no differences in how black people or people of any other ethnicity are treated in Luxembourg. Sure, there's always some people with prejudices, but outside of those, no one cares what your skin color is.



forest-spirit said:
KLAMarine said:

"Shooting is supposed to disable the suspect, not to kill him outright."

>No, shooting is supposed to kill. Tasers and handcuffs are supposed to disable, shooting is for killing. The only way to make certain an armed suspect can no longer fire their weapon is to kill them.

Shooting is supposed to kill? Either you're lying/misinformed or the US police is truly fucked up. Yes, there are situations where the police has to aim for the torso, which has a high chance of mortally wounding the suspect, but that's because the torso is easier to hit than legs or arms and the suspect is deemed to dangerous for the police to take any chances. It is not done with the intent of killing.

In Finland shooting is supposed to stop the dangerous individual from operating. And torso shots are your best bet to achieve it, as it's easiest to hit and likely effective. You can shoot someone's leg and it might not have any instant effect, so it's done if nobody is in immediate danger and ideally with MP5 or similar gun, for better accuracy. Of course, a leg shot can also kill a person in a matter of minutes. 

So, while we don't say "shoot to kill" we aren't really going for non-lethal shots either if shit hit the fan and weapon must be used. I think it's like this in most EU countries.

It's true though that US cops are more "eager" to shoot but I think it's mostly because of culture,  crime rate and stuff. It would be interesting to be a cop in big US city for a while and see if it would affect on how often I'd pull a gun at duty. 



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Immersiveunreality said:
KLAMarine said:

Who's calling it political extremism?

"but the reality is that they are being targetted with increased rates and there are far more examples of black (men in particular) people being killed by cops despite them being a minority in the US"

>Or because of the greater reporting on bad interactions between police and black men, too many black men are more paranoid as a result when it comes to police thus interactions between black men and police are sabotaged from the outset. I'm sure most get nervous when interacting with police; for a black man, regularly confronted with tales of brutality, are reasonably more fearful on average than their lighter counterparts...

And police are human too. They get nervous too and they're trained to always be ready and when confronted with a nervous black man, more nervous than they're used to with other people, they might be put more on edge fearing the person they've detained or pulled over might be armed or perhaps could be concealing something incriminating in their car. I can't blame them though, things can go from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye. Officer Riley Jarecki can tell you about that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3FGcN2Rlig

"People like you are the reason it needs to be made clear now more than ever that systemic racism is a very real and very pervasive thing"

>I can't say I'm convinced. Please help convince me.

The cop in that vid did panic for sure,that's not the best behaviour.

Take cover and shoot tires and when the driver gets out she could have shot his legs or she could call for backup when he drove away after shooting the tires.

I wonder about the entry exam for police training and how they train them to behave under stress.

Panic? She was fired at short range and she still managed to operate, call the radio and shoot back. That's damn impressive.

What happens under sudden heavy stress load is something you might not be able to control and it's something that's hard to test or practise. 

Bit fucking much to ask for shooting tires or legs at that point. I'd take her as my patrol partner any day.



KiigelHeart said:

It would be interesting to be a cop in big US city for a while and see if it would affect on how often I'd pull a gun at duty. 

d21lewis may be able to answer that.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
KLAMarine said:

Well Luxembourg and the US are not the same country. And I imagine not a lot of black people live in Luxembourg so BLM wouldn't make much sense there.

But here in the US, things can go from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye and I want to show you another video of how quickly things can escalate even when police simply want to pat down for safety's sake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YmVfr6bn-E

Well, we do have about 12% black people living in Luxembourg (most of them capeverdians, but other African regions are quickly growing in numbers). That's about the same number as in the US, which reach 13.4% of the US population.

Still, BLM wouldn't make any sense here - but not due to not being enough black people in the country, but rather because there are no policies which would warrant any protests by colored people. We have no racial profiling of any kind (strictly outlawed) or even consider different skin colors as a different race to begin with. There are no differences in how black people or people of any other ethnicity are treated in Luxembourg. Sure, there's always some people with prejudices, but outside of those, no one cares what your skin color is.

I'm looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Luxembourg and not finding much on an African population... Help me out here.



KLAMarine said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Well, we do have about 12% black people living in Luxembourg (most of them capeverdians, but other African regions are quickly growing in numbers). That's about the same number as in the US, which reach 13.4% of the US population.

Still, BLM wouldn't make any sense here - but not due to not being enough black people in the country, but rather because there are no policies which would warrant any protests by colored people. We have no racial profiling of any kind (strictly outlawed) or even consider different skin colors as a different race to begin with. There are no differences in how black people or people of any other ethnicity are treated in Luxembourg. Sure, there's always some people with prejudices, but outside of those, no one cares what your skin color is.

I'm looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Luxembourg and not finding much on an African population... Help me out here.

Like I said, we don't do racial profiling, so that 12% was an official estimation a couple years ago. I'll get you a source when I find it back.

We just count by nationality, and since many people of sub-Saharan African origin (African people from north of the Sahara desert are not black) came in the 1960-2000 timeframe, and many of them have since acquired the Luxembourgish nationality and/or had children which chose to become Luxembourgers instead of the nationality that their families came from originally, it's impossible to use those raw numbers for any racial statistics.

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 28 July 2020

KiigelHeart said:
forest-spirit said:

Shooting is supposed to kill? Either you're lying/misinformed or the US police is truly fucked up. Yes, there are situations where the police has to aim for the torso, which has a high chance of mortally wounding the suspect, but that's because the torso is easier to hit than legs or arms and the suspect is deemed to dangerous for the police to take any chances. It is not done with the intent of killing.

In Finland shooting is supposed to stop the dangerous individual from operating. And torso shots are your best bet to achieve it, as it's easiest to hit and likely effective. You can shoot someone's leg and it might not have any instant effect, so it's done if nobody is in immediate danger and ideally with MP5 or similar gun, for better accuracy. Of course, a leg shot can also kill a person in a matter of minutes. 

So, while we don't say "shoot to kill" we aren't really going for non-lethal shots either if shit hit the fan and weapon must be used. I think it's like this in most EU countries.

It's true though that US cops are more "eager" to shoot but I think it's mostly because of culture,  crime rate and stuff. It would be interesting to be a cop in big US city for a while and see if it would affect on how often I'd pull a gun at duty. 

Sure, it's the same in Sweden. The torso is the easiest part to hit so if the police are in a situation where they can't take any chances that's the part to aim for. But it's done with the intent of disabling the suspect, not killing. That's what I'm getting at. The police aren't supposed to kill, they're supposed to disable. There's a difference there that's important to understand as far as I'm concerned. The police aren't executioners for crying out loud.