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Forums - Gaming Discussion - EVO 2019 Game Lineup

MrWayne said:

Why are some people happy that melee got dropped? I think melee is one of the most exciting fighting games to watch so I'm sad it got dropped.

Well as I pointed out in my post, imagine if that logic was applied to every game that people think are still fun to play and watch?
Then there wouldn't just be one slot occupied by a 10+ year old game, but several. Meaning there would be even fewer spots for newer games like Dragonball, Soul Calibur, etc.

Eventually, EVO would just be a tournament focusing on classic games.

Last edited by Hiku - on 27 February 2019

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Hiku said:
MrWayne said:

Why are some people happy that melee got dropped? I think melee is one of the most exciting fighting games to watch so I'm sad it got dropped.

Well as I pointed out in my post, imagine if that logic was applied to every game that people think are still fun to play and watch?
Then there wouldn't just be one slot occupied by a 10+ year old game, but several. Meaning there would be even fewer spots for newer games like Dragonball, Soul Calibur, etc.

Eventually, EVO would just be a tournament of classic games.

Smash has the strongest grass roots scene of any fighting game anyway Melee will still be around for large Smash specific tournaments like Genesis, Shine, Pound, Summit etc...



Wyrdness said:
Hiku said:

Well as I pointed out in my post, imagine if that logic was applied to every game that people think are still fun to play and watch?
Then there wouldn't just be one slot occupied by a 10+ year old game, but several. Meaning there would be even fewer spots for newer games like Dragonball, Soul Calibur, etc.

Eventually, EVO would just be a tournament of classic games.

Smash has the strongest grass roots scene of any fighting game anyway Melee will still be around for large Smash specific tournaments like Genesis, Shine, Pound, Summit etc...

It'll be fine without EVO and could even make its way back if there are more slots available.



Hiku said:
MrWayne said:

Why are some people happy that melee got dropped? I think melee is one of the most exciting fighting games to watch so I'm sad it got dropped.

Well as I pointed out in my post, imagine if that logic was applied to every game that people think are still fun to play and watch?
Then there wouldn't just be one slot occupied by a 10+ year old game, but several. Meaning there would be even fewer spots for newer games like Dragonball, Soul Calibur, etc.

Eventually, EVO would just be a tournament focusing on classic games.

A 10 year old classic game that nobody plays and watches obviously doesn't have a place at EVO but Melee is hugely popular, probably more popular than half of the games who will be at EVO. Melee is a legacy title and very unique in E-sports. That's the reason why Melee should be at EVO, not my subjective liking for the game.



MrWayne said:
Hiku said:

Well as I pointed out in my post, imagine if that logic was applied to every game that people think are still fun to play and watch?
Then there wouldn't just be one slot occupied by a 10+ year old game, but several. Meaning there would be even fewer spots for newer games like Dragonball, Soul Calibur, etc.

Eventually, EVO would just be a tournament focusing on classic games.

A 10 year old classic game that nobody plays and watches obviously doesn't have a place at EVO but Melee is hugely popular, probably more popular than half of the games who will be at EVO. Melee is a legacy title and very unique in E-sports. That's the reason why Melee should be at EVO, not my subjective liking for the game.

Smash's legacy titles will always be more popular than most other games the series is a massive seller to point it outsells many other games combined, even today Smash 64 has an active scene comparable to other fighting games for reference we can't simply go by popularity.



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Wyrdness said:
MrWayne said:

A 10 year old classic game that nobody plays and watches obviously doesn't have a place at EVO but Melee is hugely popular, probably more popular than half of the games who will be at EVO. Melee is a legacy title and very unique in E-sports. That's the reason why Melee should be at EVO, not my subjective liking for the game.

Smash's legacy titles will always be more popular than most other games the series is a massive seller to point it outsells many other games combined, even today Smash 64 has an active scene comparable to other fighting games for reference we can't simply go by popularity.

It's not just the numbers of sold copies or that it is a Smash game, Melee survived two of its successor despite the fact that it never got any official support from nintendo(more the opposite) and that you need a old consol and a CRT to play it.

Melees is unique in Esports history, the only thing comparable would be Starcraft: Brood War in south korea.



MrWayne said:
Wyrdness said:

Smash's legacy titles will always be more popular than most other games the series is a massive seller to point it outsells many other games combined, even today Smash 64 has an active scene comparable to other fighting games for reference we can't simply go by popularity.

It's not just the numbers of sold copies or that it is a Smash game, Melee survived two of its successor despite the fact that it never got any official support from nintendo(more the opposite) and that you need a old consol and a CRT to play it.

Melees is unique in Esports history, the only thing comparable would be Starcraft: Brood War in south korea.

Melee survived because of peculiar factors, Brawl wasn't competitive due to tripping and Melee's community rallied against the game heavily when Evo considered bringing Smash back to the tournament's voting line up which ended up getting Melee back into the tournament. Melee was kept after that purely because of numbers even after S4 arrived as it still generated views for sponsors despite the fact that S4 had the biggest showing for Evo until DBFZ turned up that's why the were two Smash games at EVO for a while because they were doing the donkey work during a time tournaments were having a tricky time as SFV was and still isn't the spectator sport people hoped for, Marvel just fell while the other games simply didn't pull in as much numbers the result was that Smash's huge popularity had to do a lot of lifting and it did it just fine.

Today however the scene is a bit more healthy as DBFZ and Tekken generate views and SFV despite it's woes maintains decent viewership meaning they don't need two Smash games to do heavy lifting and can promote and push other games and communities this is why Melee is being dropped from non Smash Specific tournaments.



MrWayne said:
Hiku said:

Well as I pointed out in my post, imagine if that logic was applied to every game that people think are still fun to play and watch?
Then there wouldn't just be one slot occupied by a 10+ year old game, but several. Meaning there would be even fewer spots for newer games like Dragonball, Soul Calibur, etc.

Eventually, EVO would just be a tournament focusing on classic games.

A 10 year old classic game that nobody plays and watches obviously doesn't have a place at EVO but Melee is hugely popular, probably more popular than half of the games who will be at EVO. Melee is a legacy title and very unique in E-sports. That's the reason why Melee should be at EVO, not my subjective liking for the game.

I'm talking about the ones that would still be played to this day competitively over their 'replacements' had there not been an active push away from them. Where the consensus is largely that the sequels did not live up to expectations.
Street Fighter 4 would likely still be the preferred game to play, but Capcom and tournament organizers dropped support for the old game while it was at the height of its (competitive) popularity, and pushed for the new game, while pro players followed the money.

There can be a correlation between developer/tournament organizer/e-sports support for a game, and influence on its scene.
EVO has a limited number of spots for its main games. And there are some games and scenes that could greatly benefit from being featured.
Melee will be fine without that spot though.
But if EVO and other tournaments and sponsors focused on the games people like the most, some scenes would probably look different today. Perhaps arguably for the better for both players and viewers. But not so much for the developers and the future of the franchise.
And even if they some times get things wrong, there needs to be some support in order for them to move forward and get things right next time.

Last edited by Hiku - on 27 February 2019

Ok I see where you two are coming from, you basically arguing from a developers point of view or someone who gets into every new fighting game, that's a fair stance.

What I say is the more a game gets independent from its developer/publisher the more legitimacy it gets as a sport. For me EVO should be the event where the champions of the most competitive fighting games get determined and not a promotion for the newest games (that does not mean that only old games should be at EVO).

I only recently started to pay more attention to the fighting game community so maybe you guys just see it differently.



MrWayne said:

Ok I see where you two are coming from, you basically arguing from a developers point of view or someone who gets into every new fighting game, that's a fair stance.

What I say is the more a game gets independent from its developer/publisher the more legitimacy it gets as a sport. For me EVO should be the event where the champions of the most competitive fighting games get determined and not a promotion for the newest games (that does not mean that only old games should be at EVO).

I only recently started to pay more attention to the fighting game community so maybe you guys just see it differently.

Well, it's a bit of both. But I was mainly explaining that portion in my post, and a little about how they can tie into each other.

I'll try to explain my thoughts from the the competitor/viewer point of view now.

So here's a hypothetical scenario.
Imagine if 9 fighting games were released the first year EVO started. And all 9 were featured that year.
And during each subsequent year, a new fighting game is released. So when we get to 2019, let's say 19 new fighting games were released. And all of them (for the sake of argument) are almost equally popular to the 9 featured at EVO, every year in major tournaments.
But because EVO only has 9 spots for main titles, none of those 19 games were ever featured as main games at EVO. Because like Melee, the community surrounding those games kept strong. So for the 19th year in a row, we're having Capcom vs SNK 2 as a main game. Which is my favorite fighting game, btw. But as a result, Dragonball FighterZ never made it in, etc.

This is not a 1:1 comparison to the current situation, because obviously Melee is a lot more popular than UNIST, or a game that has yet to be released, Samurai Shodown.
But the principle behind it is the same, and it's a scenario that could technically happen if any game can remain a main title indefinitely, based on the fact that it's more popular than another game.
And as a viewer I have to think, is it better for the scene to base it on popularity indefinitely, even if it comes at the expense of other titles?
And would I want that for my favorite game?

I never saw CVS2 at EVO, so the closest comparison I have would be SF4, because I thoroughly enjoyed watching it being played at the highest level, and it had a long run at EVO. 7 years. Same as Melee in fact.
But I barely ever enjoy high level SFV. So it'd be easy for me to say that I'd take another year of SF4 in its place. And based on talk I see from the community, I also think that coincides with what most people would want, if it were up to them.

However, the issue is that it comes at the expense of another game. In this case it would only replace its less popular sequel. But for Melee its a bit different. It does not take the spot of Ultimate, but of another entirely different game.
So that is one thing to consider.

But even in the case of SF4 vs SFV, and even though I don't enjoy SFV much, and perhaps most people even agree with that sentiment, there are a great number of people who do enjoy it. SFIV had a good run. I got to enjoy it for 7 years. Even if we assume the fanbase for SFV is smaller in quantity, don't they have a right to get the same chance to enjoy the game they love at the highest stage? Just because there's fewer of them?

When I think about it like that, then I'm ok with SF4 not being there.
They said that UNIST largely made it in thanks to it making a big splash as a side tournament last year. I like the idea of the 9th spot possibly being reserved for the side game that garners the most passionate fanbase and/or hype in the previous year. Especially if it hasn't been at EVO before.

Mainly for the sake of that fanbase, and letting them get the chance to enjoy their favorite game at the highest stage. But also from the perspective of my own enjoyment.
Because new games can potentially surprise me and entertain me as well.

For example, my all time favorite EVO Grand Finals is the match between Dogura and Gallileo in Blaz Blue.
A game I had never played, and never even seen a full match of, before that Top 8. In fact, I still didn't play it or watch any more matches of it after. But that Top 3, and the Grand Finals in particular gave me a fond memory for life.

Here's Maximillian's Top 5 EVO hype moments recap featuring it fyi: https://youtu.be/PPPe2qbF3dQ?t=668

"One of the most incredible comebacks ever seen in fighting game history."
Even though I love his video of it, it couldn't quite capture the intensity of every moment, because you see many of them without context, not showing just how much of a comeback it was, etc. And by the time you realize that it's match point with a sliver of life away from elimination or whatever, its on to the next moment. But the video definitely captures the emotion of the players and the commentators. And that was very important.

I've never seen that many unlikely comebacks in one single set before. And I'm not sure I ever will again.

The KOF finals in 2012 between Bala and Mad KOF had similar energy from the commentators and the crowd, along with the hype battles.

And who could forget Woshige standing up at Guilty Gear Xrd?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G8oHukH_pE

If it weren't for the fact that EVO keeps featuring different games, then moments like these that can even be incredibly hype for people who have otherwise never had any interest in those games, would never have happened. That's something that (almost) only EVO does, because of how big it is and all the emotions that come with it.

Last edited by Hiku - on 28 February 2019