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Forums - Politics Discussion - Was Hitler a Socialist?

Final-Fan on 21 October 2018
melbye said:
Final-Fan said:

I think he was asking for specific actions or policies or "browncoats playbook" type things that you could actually point to in "the more left leaning people in america" that are substantially similar to Hitler's and different from most other people in America. 

Stuff like this maybe(https://www.westernjournal.com/antifa-shut-intersection-threaten/) or this(https://freebeacon.com/politics/two-gop-candidates-assaulted-minnesota/)

I agree that the actions reported in those stories are wrong.  I have more confidence in the accuracy of the Minnesota story than the Oregon story.  I did a little digging on the latter and found wildly different accounts, and was unable to corroborate the one you cited:  videos had been taken down etc.  (By the way, I live in MN, so double thanks for bringing that to my attention.)  But how do they compare to the actions of Hitler and his supporters?  I mean he wasn't shooting Jews in the streets 24/7 and I guess he started small like everyone else, but I want to know where you're drawing the comparison.  Also I'd ask if the original comment was implying that this behavior was specific to the left, or more prevalent there, or was just "the extreme left as well as the extreme right". 



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Mr Puggsly on 21 October 2018
the-pi-guy said:

On some level, I don't think it matters.  

People like to thrust that claim, to demonize socialists.  


Hitler was a monster because he was a racist nationalist, not because he was a socialist.  

Actually, I'm not bothered that Hitler was racist or a nationalist.

Hitler was a monster because he used his power do commit atrocities. Being a racist and a nationalist doesn't mean you have to commit genocide. Glad I could clarify that.



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Mr Puggsly on 21 October 2018
PwerlvlAmy said:
Flilix said:

Could you elaborate your reasoning? I'm very curious to see what made you say this.

Everything from his personal actions, to his policies, to the browncoats playbook to me matches it completely based off the current state of politics. That's why I stated it. 

It seems people are in denial about the connection of dictators and left wing policies.

I don't think dictators have generally been fans of the free market or capitalism. That's antithetical to them controlling everything.



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melbye on 21 October 2018
Final-Fan said:
melbye said:

Stuff like this maybe(https://www.westernjournal.com/antifa-shut-intersection-threaten/) or this(https://freebeacon.com/politics/two-gop-candidates-assaulted-minnesota/)

I agree that the actions reported in those stories are wrong.  I have more confidence in the accuracy of the Minnesota story than the Oregon story.  I did a little digging on the latter and found wildly different accounts, and was unable to corroborate the one you cited:  videos had been taken down etc.  (By the way, I live in MN, so double thanks for bringing that to my attention.)  But how do they compare to the actions of Hitler and his supporters?  I mean he wasn't shooting Jews in the streets 24/7 and I guess he started small like everyone else, but I want to know where you're drawing the comparison.  Also I'd ask if the original comment was implying that this behavior was specific to the left, or more prevalent there, or was just "the extreme left as well as the extreme right". 

Tim Pool plays some clips from the Portland incidence in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmYe1Zf8MGw&t=

And the way i see it right now there is far more violence and intimidation from the EXTREME left than the EXTREME right, maybe the right is just better at covering it up.

Last edited by melbye - on 21 October 2018

donathos on 21 October 2018
CuCabeludo said:

Hitler was a facist, which only differs from socialism when it comes to the existence or not of the private sector. Socialism denies the private sector any freedom, all companies are state owned and the economy is planned by the government.

Facism allows the private sector to prosper.

What both ideologies have in common is a huge, heavy police state that goes against and denies any civil or individual rights to the people.

My critique here is whether the "private sector" can exist under fascism. A true private sector requires civil/individual rights. If the people do not have civil or individual rights, there cannot be free enough of a market to say that there is any real private sector at all. This is why dictators such as Hitler are called "totalitarian." If I "own" a business, but the government controls me such that I cannot make meaningful fundamental decisions about it, then I do not truly "own" it at all; instead, I am a proxy for the government's interests.

The nature of governmental interests might be different under what we ordinarily call socialism (or communism) versus fascism (the first supposedly representing the class, or proletariat, as against the state itself, or the race) but dictators of both stripe give to themselves the power to make anything happen within their countries, on the threat of force. If they want you to do a thing with "your" business, they will either take it (i.e. "nationalism," characteristic of socialism) or tell you what to do with it (fascism). These are both contrary to capitalism and the liberal values (especially individual rights) that allow a true private sector to exist.



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Pemalite on 21 October 2018
Mr Puggsly said:

Actually, I'm not bothered that Hitler was racist or a nationalist.

Hitler was a monster because he used his power do commit atrocities. Being a racist and a nationalist doesn't mean you have to commit genocide. Glad I could clarify that.

Being racist means you generally have a strong disdain for those demographics, thus you are more likely to have an affinity to treating those demographics poorly.

Mr Puggsly said:

It seems people are in denial about the connection of dictators and left wing policies.

I don't think dictators have generally been fans of the free market or capitalism. That's antithetical to them controlling everything.

The far right and far left are as bad as each other.

melbye said:

And the way i see it right now there is far more violence and intimidation from the EXTREME left than the EXTREME right, maybe the right is just better at covering it up.

Nah.



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Final-Fan on 22 October 2018
melbye said:
Final-Fan said:

I agree that the actions reported in those stories are wrong.  I have more confidence in the accuracy of the Minnesota story than the Oregon story.  I did a little digging on the latter and found wildly different accounts, and was unable to corroborate the one you cited:  videos had been taken down etc.  (By the way, I live in MN, so double thanks for bringing that to my attention.)  But how do they compare to the actions of Hitler and his supporters?  I mean he wasn't shooting Jews in the streets 24/7 and I guess he started small like everyone else, but I want to know where you're drawing the comparison.  Also I'd ask if the original comment was implying that this behavior was specific to the left, or more prevalent there, or was just "the extreme left as well as the extreme right". 

Tim Pool plays some clips from the Portland incidence in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmYe1Zf8MGw&t=

And the way i see it right now there is far more violence and intimidation from the EXTREME left than the EXTREME right, maybe the right is just better at covering it up.

OK, so I just don't see a little verbal abuse as justifying the comparison that is being made.  For example, that the guy who drove through the protesters, then briefly got out of his car, then got back in and drove off—I suspect that guy would have found himself getting dragged to the ground and beaten by the brownshirts. 

As for how much violence there is from the extremists in comparison with each other, I honestly suspect it's down to your sources.  Looking online it wasn't too hard to find plenty of examples the other way, and specifically it looks at first glance that more of the killings happened from right wing compared to left wing (I excluded islamic extremism from this comparison)—although of course both sides are only a tiny fraction of total homicides in the country.  Then again, I would count the murder of Heather Heyer as one done by a right wing extremist, but since he was apparently a big fan of Hitler maybe you'd say I should count the perpetrator as left wing. 



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Pemalite on 22 October 2018
Final-Fan said:

I excluded islamic extremism from this comparison

Islamic extremists tend to be right-wing religious conservatives.



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Mr Puggsly on 22 October 2018
Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Actually, I'm not bothered that Hitler was racist or a nationalist.

Hitler was a monster because he used his power do commit atrocities. Being a racist and a nationalist doesn't mean you have to commit genocide. Glad I could clarify that.

Being racist means you generally have a strong disdain for those demographics, thus you are more likely to have an affinity to treating those demographics poorly.

Mr Puggsly said:

It seems people are in denial about the connection of dictators and left wing policies.

I don't think dictators have generally been fans of the free market or capitalism. That's antithetical to them controlling everything.

The far right and far left are as bad as each other.

I agree, but the bar today for being racist is really low. You don't necessarily have to treat certain groups poorly to be deemed racist, simply having a view that isn't politically correct could make you racist. Hence, I don't really care if Hitler had negative thoughts about the Jews, its what he used his power to accomplish.

We hear talk of the extreme right, but I see nothing extreme being pushing by mainstream right wingers at the moment. Outside of being more nationalistic (as in focusing on our interests and prosperity) and getting a grip on immigration. These used to be center ideas pushed by left as well.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 22 October 2018

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Mr Puggsly on 22 October 2018
Pemalite said:
Final-Fan said:

I excluded islamic extremism from this comparison

Islamic extremists tend to be right-wing religious conservatives.

That's more like a unique situation to a certain region of the world. It seems when you move people from that region to more civilized western countries, there is some compatibility issues as well.

I can't help but think it has something to do with Islam, but I'd have to a be a bigot to suggest that idea.



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