By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Should Brett Kavanaugh SCOTUS Nomination Continue?

 

Should Brett Kavanaugh SCOTUS Nomination Continue?

Yes 53 47.32%
 
No 41 36.61%
 
Trump should pick a new canidate 18 16.07%
 
Total:112
PwerlvlAmy said:
Absolutely continue. Innocent until proven guilty. No evidence that he's guilty(thus far). Vote should happen by mid next week as it passed the committee earlier today to send it to the floor and the 7th FBI check will be pretty quick.

I feel like I can be of help on this notion. For those that don't have a legal background, there is actually no explicit guarantee of "innocent until proven guilty" established in the US Constitution. Instead case law and precedent from the Supreme Court have established the notion as a combined part of the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendment. There is no dispute in American legal precedent that there is presumption of innocence.

However, this doesn't mean the idea isn't misinterpreted. Presumption of innocence is ONLY a guarantee for criminal defendants. To better place that in the wording of the Constitution, such manners of due process are only guaranteed when life, liberty, or property are at stake. Finally, it must be a government actor that seeks to seize life, liberty, or property.

In Judge Kavanaugh's case, he is not a criminal defendant nor is a government actor seeking to seize his life, liberty, or property. Judge Kavanaugh is not owed this presumption. Frankly, as a Judge, he knows in this setting he isn't owed much of anything. However, Senate committee rules due try to provide some forms of due process to have a fair hearing when questioning nominees. 

 

For a lot of good reasons which I wont' get into here, presumption of innocence has little worth outside of the criminal context. Civil cases do not have this presumption for instance. Really it is meant to be a check on the executive branch to prevent unfair trials and proceedings where the government already enjoys more power. 



Around the Network
NightlyPoe said:
OlfinBedwere said:

The way Murphy's Law works, however, the Republicans would likely end up changing things to make it easier to push nominees through uncontested, only for the next vacancy not to pop up until the Democrats have retaken the White House and/or Congress.

I don't see a downside to that.  Democrat nominees don't face the sort of smears that Republican nominees do.  Heck, Sotomayor made a statement of her inherent gender and ethnic superiority multiple times.  Statements that should have scuttled her nomination, but hardly made a ripple.

SuaveSocialist said:
No one should be appointed as a judge while they are under investigation for a serious crime. Doing so throws their court into disrepute and undermines public confidence in the sanctity of their station. If confirmed, it should include conditions that must be met before his duties begin. The investigation should reach its natural conclusion, and if they press charges, he must be found Not Guilty on all counts. Innocent until proven guilty, but having someone act as judge while under criminal investigation is a conflict of interest of epic proportions.

Kavanaugh isn't under any criminal investigation whatsoever.  

they're not investigating this criminally.  

Didn’t mean to say they were, but they are investigating a serious crime (as opening statement indicates), so apart from needing to rephrase my closing statement, everything before it still stands.



NightlyPoe said:
SuaveSocialist said:

Didn’t mean to say they were, but they are investigating a serious crime (as opening statement indicates), so apart from needing to rephrase my closing statement, everything before it still stands.

Not really.  The term "investigating" is a misnomer.  

Federal Bureau of _____________ (full in the blank)



NightlyPoe said:
SuaveSocialist said:

Federal Bureau of _____________ (full in the blank)

That is not as persuasive an argument as you likely believe.

Go on. Fill it. I believe in you. I’ll give you a hint: it’s the “I” in “FBI”.



The bitch is clearly lying. I think this will be the point where this metoo crap finally dies. It may have started with good intentions but as with everything third wave feminists just ruin it. Too many innocent men have been dragged into this and have had their reputations ruined.



Around the Network
Zucas said:
PwerlvlAmy said:
Absolutely continue. Innocent until proven guilty. No evidence that he's guilty(thus far). Vote should happen by mid next week as it passed the committee earlier today to send it to the floor and the 7th FBI check will be pretty quick.

I feel like I can be of help on this notion. For those that don't have a legal background, there is actually no explicit guarantee of "innocent until proven guilty" established in the US Constitution. Instead case law and precedent from the Supreme Court have established the notion as a combined part of the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendment. There is no dispute in American legal precedent that there is presumption of innocence.

However, this doesn't mean the idea isn't misinterpreted. Presumption of innocence is ONLY a guarantee for criminal defendants. To better place that in the wording of the Constitution, such manners of due process are only guaranteed when life, liberty, or property are at stake. Finally, it must be a government actor that seeks to seize life, liberty, or property.

In Judge Kavanaugh's case, he is not a criminal defendant nor is a government actor seeking to seize his life, liberty, or property. Judge Kavanaugh is not owed this presumption. Frankly, as a Judge, he knows in this setting he isn't owed much of anything. However, Senate committee rules due try to provide some forms of due process to have a fair hearing when questioning nominees. 

 

For a lot of good reasons which I wont' get into here, presumption of innocence has little worth outside of the criminal context. Civil cases do not have this presumption for instance. Really it is meant to be a check on the executive branch to prevent unfair trials and proceedings where the government already enjoys more power. 

You might be right about that, but it is still wrong and morally bankrupt to condemn someone when there is no evidence that they did something wrong, especially this serious.



I'm surprised that this thread has been (so far) so civil and even more surprised at the support shown for Kavanagh. I live in Europe so the idea of a new supreme court justice who will support the power of the president and overturn a woman's right to choose is not exactly appetising to me. That said, the guy seems qualified for the role and there aren't many people on earth who can do the job. If he were (still) a sexual predator we'd know by now and they wouldn't need to go back to his high school behavior to turn up something against him.

If I were guessing I'd say Kavanagh doesn't seem like he was a very nice young man. If the FBI can turn something up that merits prosecution then all bets will be off, but with the standard of proof needed for charges to be brought, I doubt anything will come of it. He should certainly be allowed to go ahead to a vote on the floor of the Senate absent a lot more evidence. I think the extra week's vetting was a sensible compromise.



NightlyPoe said:
SuaveSocialist said:

Go on. Fill it. I believe in you. I’ll give you a hint: it’s the “I” in “FBI”.

investigation

Congratulations!  I knew you could do it.



PwerlvlAmy said:
Absolutely continue. Innocent until proven guilty. No evidence that he's guilty(thus far). Vote should happen by mid next week as it passed the committee earlier today to send it to the floor and the 7th FBI check will be pretty quick.

Thanks for not Banning me over my opinion. Resetera did so and called it trolling a sensitive topic. Everyone in there was defending Ford so I defended Kavanaugh. I hope that site implodes if he's elected. 



I honestly believe (can't prove 100%) that Ford is lying. However, the biggest losers are the Democrats. Using this as a way to postpone the vote for their own benefit is really screwed up.