Forums - Politics Discussion - OK, so what is a "feminist game"?

Jaicee said:
RolStoppable said:

The point is that you are overthinking things. Seinfeld works as supplement to strengthen that point, because it was a sitcom built around humor that was overthinking pretty much everything.

You provide us with threads about things that this community wouldn't even think about, and it's pretty crazy. The quote AngryLittleAlchemist picked out of your original post... I've never even remotely imagined that there is such a thing. *insert my current profile picture as supplement for this paragraph*

Sorry if I've weirded you out. It appears that I am coming from a very different view of the world than people here (or most places really) commonly are, and I'm really just meaning to establish communication that's not entirely superficial, not to make people uncomfortable.

I wouldn't say uncomfortable but lets remember that everything can be discussed, analyzed and/or criticized, its okay to bring this things to the table and learn more from them, the thing with the "feminist things" nowadays is that they have seem to have "blown out" if you will, due to some groups and massive media as they try to impose their opinions  and force their "facts", even when they aren't homogenous even from person to person or "woman to woman", as evidenced by the original question about which games are considered feminist.

It's not that this themes can't be discussed but a lot of people do it ignoring a lot of the things involved, or not knowing or considering simpler premises which most of the times are the basis for a lot of our arguments and instead recurring to ovethinked, complicated or just far-fetched statements, then there is also the outright resort to insults or disqualifications, then people tend to let go and dismiss the discussion or a lot of times assume the complete reverse (and equally ridiculous) stance.

I grew learning that feminism was the "ideology" of looking just for what was right: to get women to be treated as equal and have the same opportunities in every field of the human development as men. Being from a country that has history of being considered "machista" (sexist), that is not "predominantly white", full of inequality thanks to its goverment etc. i think a lot of the people like myself can still tell you about women that are still being oppressed to this day and the complete bullshit spewed by media, and the "feminist" groups and other advocated to "social justice".

For example, in our entertainment media the videogames, practically growing with them since the NES days and having access to a lot of computer games i can attest to the "damsel in distress" trope being one the most prevalent in a lot of our videogames, but people outright ignore the basis for why it was used a lot to begin with.

Then you have  as characters that have been considered well done by feminist as written by leedlee:

A good feminist character who interacts with men would be Bayonetta...

Yes, she's extremely sexual, and male gamers may find it appealing, but she is in control of her sexuality; she is not sexual in order to get gratification or validation from men, she's constantly "feeling her oats" as a drag queen would say..."

But then again there is a lack of equivalence even between feminists or people that define themselves like that because a lot of them disagree in what is to be treated as equal.

 

  • Some have said that Bayonetta is nothing more than eye candy.
  • Some that Bayonetta is another oversexed female.
  • Some that she is a strong female or an action female.
  • Some that she is a strong female that is in control of her sexuality.
  • Some just dismiss her as a forgettable female in a genre which generally has male protagonist.
  • Some call her bad designed and weird.
  • Some think she is and/or look strange and ridiculous.
  • Some call her outright gross.

 

Then again, i  have read a lot of opinions from consumers and "professional journalists" calling themselves feminist like that about her and a lot of characters, seems to me that we have a lot not only differences, but also clashing as to what we can label as feminist according to what anyone think its feminism.

 





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You are showing to have more prejudice than the average gamer you are talking against.

You appreciate more if a product is aimed at you, use female as protagonist, abide by the rules of your section of feminism, etc. Those are very narrow-minded way to limit your pleasure on the entertainment.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:
You are showing to have more prejudice than the average gamer you are talking against.

You appreciate more if a product is aimed at you, use female as protagonist, abide by the rules of your section of feminism, etc. Those are very narrow-minded way to limit your pleasure on the entertainment.

Well let's test that theory for a moment:

I've been gaming with fair regularity for the last 31 years. In the course of that time, I have amassed a considerable library, out of which titles that apply male-centric narratives compose probably in the neighborhood of 70% even now. Would you conversely say that 70% of the games you own primarily revolve around the other sex in terms of the stories they tell or the characters they center as the player? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say probably not. You know why that is? It's because I am, in all likelihood, a more broad-minded and less bigoted person than you are. And because I factually have fewer alternatives to choose from that way.

Let's say that the objective situation that presently exists were exactly reversed. Let's imagine an alternate universe in which female-centric games reaching publication outnumbered male-centric ones by a margin of 5 to 1. Let's imagine, likewise, that 99.9% of video games were created by predominantly female development teams and that gaming-oriented communities like this were nearly all female in their composition in addition, with threads popping up all the time complaining about how it's unnatural for men to be included in this game and that and half of users using their "husbandos" as their avatars. What if there were stories of epidemic levels of sexual harassment of men by women in online gaming spaces making the news? What if the main and most common public role of male gamers was that of sewing together sexy costumes of game characters for beauty pageants rather than participating in competitions? What if male-led video games sold only 25% as many copies, on average, as female-led ones and female gamers frequently used that fact as an argument for why male-led games shouldn't be made at all, and publishers generally listened to that argument? Would you still be a gamer under those circumstances or would your relationship to this medium probably be reduced to a casual one at best under those conditions? I think we both know what the honest answer is.

The fact is that the video game industry values your patronage a lot more than mine and that both the industry and corresponding community pander to you a lot more than they do to me because of your genitals. I don't believe that placing a premium on the clearest exceptions to that rule makes me a particularly irrational or prejudiced person.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 13 September 2018

foxmccloud64 said:

I wouldn't say uncomfortable but lets remember that everything can be discussed, analyzed and/or criticized, its okay to bring this things to the table and learn more from them, the thing with the "feminist things" nowadays is that they have seem to have "blown out" if you will, due to some groups and massive media as they try to impose their opinions  and force their "facts", even when they aren't homogenous even from person to person or "woman to woman", as evidenced by the original question about which games are considered feminist.

It's not that this themes can't be discussed but a lot of people do it ignoring a lot of the things involved, or not knowing or considering simpler premises which most of the times are the basis for a lot of our arguments and instead recurring to ovethinked, complicated or just far-fetched statements, then there is also the outright resort to insults or disqualifications, then people tend to let go and dismiss the discussion or a lot of times assume the complete reverse (and equally ridiculous) stance.

I grew learning that feminism was the "ideology" of looking just for what was right: to get women to be treated as equal and have the same opportunities in every field of the human development as men. Being from a country that has history of being considered "machista" (sexist), that is not "predominantly white", full of inequality thanks to its goverment etc. i think a lot of the people like myself can still tell you about women that are still being oppressed to this day and the complete bullshit spewed by media, and the "feminist" groups and other advocated to "social justice".

For example, in our entertainment media the videogames, practically growing with them since the NES days and having access to a lot of computer games i can attest to the "damsel in distress" trope being one the most prevalent in a lot of our videogames, but people outright ignore the basis for why it was used a lot to begin with.

Then you have  as characters that have been considered well done by feminist as written by leedlee:

A good feminist character who interacts with men would be Bayonetta...

Yes, she's extremely sexual, and male gamers may find it appealing, but she is in control of her sexuality; she is not sexual in order to get gratification or validation from men, she's constantly "feeling her oats" as a drag queen would say..."

But then again there is a lack of equivalence even between feminists or people that define themselves like that because a lot of them disagree in what is to be treated as equal.

 

  • Some have said that Bayonetta is nothing more than eye candy.
  • Some that Bayonetta is another oversexed female.
  • Some that she is a strong female or an action female.
  • Some that she is a strong female that is in control of her sexuality.
  • Some just dismiss her as a forgettable female in a genre which generally has male protagonist.
  • Some call her bad designed and weird.
  • Some think she is and/or look strange and ridiculous.
  • Some call her outright gross.

 

Then again, i  have read a lot of opinions from consumers and "professional journalists" calling themselves feminist like that about her and a lot of characters, seems to me that we have a lot not only differences, but also clashing as to what we can label as feminist according to what anyone think its feminism.

I'm not really gathering what the crux of your argument is here, but to speak to the particular case of Bayonetta, while I think a supportive position is understandable, I'm not really among the franchise's biggest fans, personally.

The issue with Bayonetta for me is not that I object to fighting characters having sex appeal. I can relate to wanting to feel more appealing myself often. I don't object to female action characters donning revealing attire sometimes. What I object to about Bayonetta is that she is not a fighting character who happens to be sexy so much as she is a sexy character who happens to fight. All of her "fighting" moves are actually stripper moves, up to and including the removal of all her clothes as a form of attack. In other words, she is nothing but her sex appeal, and I don't find that very appealing.



Jaicee said:
DonFerrari said:
You are showing to have more prejudice than the average gamer you are talking against.

You appreciate more if a product is aimed at you, use female as protagonist, abide by the rules of your section of feminism, etc. Those are very narrow-minded way to limit your pleasure on the entertainment.

Well let's test that theory for a moment:

I've been gaming with fair regularity for the last 31 years. In the course of that time, I have amassed a considerable library, out of which titles that apply male-centric narratives compose probably in the neighborhood of 70% even now. Would you conversely say that 70% of the games you own primarily revolve around the other sex in terms of the stories they tell or the characters they center as the player? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say probably not. You know why that is? It's because I am, in all likelihood, a more broad-minded and less bigoted person than you are. And because I factually have fewer alternatives to choose from that way.

Let's say that the objective situation that presently exists were exactly reversed. Let's imagine an alternate universe in which female-centric games reaching publication outnumbered male-centric ones by a margin of 5 to 1. Let's imagine, likewise, that 99.9% of video games were created by predominantly female development teams and that gaming-oriented communities like this were nearly all female in their composition in addition, with threads popping up all the time complaining about how it's unnatural for men to be included in this game and that and half of users using their "husbandos" as their avatars. What if there were stories of epidemic levels of sexual harassment of men by women in online gaming spaces making the news? What if the main and most common public role of male gamers was that of sewing together sexy costumes of game characters for beauty pageants rather than participating in competitions? What if male-led video games sold only 25% as many copies, on average, as female-led ones and female gamers frequently used that fact as an argument for why male-led games shouldn't be made at all, and publishers generally listened to that argument? Would you still be a gamer under those circumstances or would your relationship to this medium probably be reduced to a casual one at best under those conditions? I think we both know what the honest answer is.

The fact is that the video game industry values your patronage a lot more than mine and that both the industry and corresponding community pander to you a lot more than they do to me because of your genitals. I don't believe that placing a premium on the clearest exceptions to that rule makes me a particularly irrational or prejudiced person.

I would say 90% of my games are genderless and that I don't even care if the game is geared towards man, woman, children, etc.

And I'm talking about your own prejudice because of your consecutive threads and your assumptions about the community that you yourself already confessed were wrong in the last thread you made.

Yes in all your what-if scenario I would still be a gamer. Have been gaming for as long as you since I was able to grab a controller, and gender relevant choices/games have been a thing less than 10 years and I was a gamer before. Sure if I didn't like 90% of the games released I would play less, but considering there are over 1000 games launched per gen, 100 games I would like is quite enough for me to have things to play. I average 250 games owned per gen (from as much as like 2k-5k released), do you have as much?

The main thing that shows your prejudice is exactly that you take your time to see if a game is sexist or not, if it represents what you believe, etc. Still I watch and play content regarding action, adventure, comedy, romance, fiction, terror, etc. And even watch some very feminist or identity politics show without much of an issue. As long as the material is constructed with good care and present a good result I usually enjoy. The only instances I frown from what is show is when they try to put white male as villain (not a white male villain, but generalizing the population as villains). I can very much empathize with black woman struggle, transgender, etc and how much more hardship they may face than myself, but since I haven't ever met someone being a regular white male that go against these people or make their life harder I won't accept any blame or guilty towards myself for being born white male.

I can say to you will all confidence that I don't cry over markets that doesn't have me as target even if I like their product, I know companies need to profit and they do that selling to a market that will have more people buying (except when some companies see the unattended niche and focus on it).

I also can tell you very much that I don't need to see myself on screen to relate or like the show. My favorite shows are black only sit-com, in some jokes I can totally see myself in their shoes, in others I can see I wouldn't pass through that, but even so it doesn't diminish my liking for it. So for me representativiness is pointless. So give me an accurate or in case of fiction a coherent verosimilitude content and I'm pretty much happy. I'm actually eager to see movies and games based on tribal africa and their folklore since I love myths and don't know much about theirs as I do about greek, roman, japanese and norse. But you won't see me making rants about not getting that content. I simply vote with my wallet not buying what I don't like, and if identity politics ruin a game fun then I won't buy that game, although if it improves or is indifferent I will glady buy it.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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John2290 said:
GameOverture said:

I'm no expert, but feminism has many branches and I'm pretty sure some of them would consider Portal to be, if not a overtly feminist game, at least a "feminist-friendly" one. Portal 1 is probably one of the few games that would pass the Bechdel test (maybe not since Chell is silent, but I'd argue the test probably needs to be adapted a little in order to make sense for videogames)

They have a test for that... what the fuck. What purpose would this test prove useful for, to lock yourself out of potential IP's you may like or to lock yourself in. Modern feminism must be a cult, the women who fought for women's rights would be ashamed. 

You're overthinking it and somehow getting offended because of it. The Bechdel test is more of a thought experiment than an actual metric the quality of a piece of media. I can think of plenty of games with strong or important female characters that would fail the test because that's not really the point of the test. It's the start of the conversation not the conversation itself

Last edited by collint0101 - on 13 September 2018