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Forums - Politics Discussion - Wil Wheaton, who ditched Twitter bc they didn't ban Alex Jones, gets banned from his new platform over censoring transgenders

o_O.Q said:
Final-Fan said:

Read more carefully.  "There's no reason to doubt he would have followed thru on some kind of socialism given he followed thru on his rhetoric about jews."  This implies to me that he had not yet "followed thru on some kind of socialism" by the time of his downfall, because, if he had, then "would have" (hypothetical scenario) would make no sense to talk about if he had already DONE IT.  What I said was, essentially, that if there's something the Nazis held as a core ideal, they definitely would have done something about it in the over a decade that they had control of the country—whether that's socialism or getting rid of Jews. 

the fact of the matter is that his policies were socialist from the very beginning, regardless of the original poster's thoughts on the matter

A brief read of Wikipeda suggests that their economic policy was highly nationalistic, but usually opposed to left-wing policies.  I mean, if you define "socialist policy" as "the policy of increasing the national authority to dictate economic activity, while still leaving it to private entities that play along with national goals," and if you say socialism has nothing to do with workforce collective bargaining etc., then I think we just plain disagree on the definition.  Now, of course I recognize that Wikipedia is not 100% reliable, but please tell me what of the following quotes you believe is incorrect or misleading, especially but not limited to the bolded: 

"In spite of their rhetoric condemning big business prior to their rise to power, the Nazis quickly entered into a partnership with German business from as early as February 1933. That month, after being appointed Chancellor but before gaining dictatorial powers, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy" and because democracy would allegedly lead to communism.[50] He promised to destroy the German left and the trade unions, without any mention of anti-Jewish policies or foreign conquests.[218] In the following weeks, the Nazi Party received contributions from seventeen different business groups, with the largest coming from IG Farben and Deutsche Bank.[218] Historian Adam Tooze writes that the leaders of German business were therefore "willing partners in the destruction of political pluralism in Germany."[48] In exchange, owners and managers of German businesses were granted unprecedented powers to control their workforce, collective bargaining was abolished and wages were frozen at a relatively low level.[219] Business profits also rose very rapidly, as did corporate investment.[220] In addition, the Nazis privatised public properties and public services, but at the same time they increased economic state control through regulations.[221] Hitler believed that private ownership was useful in that it encouraged creative competition and technical innovation, but insisted that it had to conform to national interests and be "productive" rather than "parasitical".[222] Private property rights were conditional upon following the economic priorities set by the Nazi leadership, with high profits as a reward for firms who followed them and the threat of nationalization being used against those who did not.[223] Under Nazi economics, free competition and self-regulating markets diminished, but Hitler's social Darwinist beliefs made him retain business competition and private property as economic engines.[224][225]"

I gathered from the article that the Nazi Party might perhaps have been founded with socialist ideals, but that they took a hard right turn before they gained power, allying with reactionary groups etc.  One striking example of this argument can be found in the person of Otto Strasser, a left-leaning Nazi who was party leader until 1926 when Hitler won the leadership from him.  By 1930 he was kicked out of the party.  From Wikipedia:  "The Nazi Left itself was annihilated during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 – in which his brother was killed"



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Final-Fan said:
o_O.Q said:

the fact of the matter is that his policies were socialist from the very beginning, regardless of the original poster's thoughts on the matter

A brief read of Wikipeda suggests that their economic policy was highly nationalistic, but usually opposed to left-wing policies.  I mean, if you define "socialist policy" as "the policy of increasing the national authority to dictate economic activity, while still leaving it to private entities that play along with national goals," and if you say socialism has nothing to do with workforce collective bargaining etc., then I think we just plain disagree on the definition.  Now, of course I recognize that Wikipedia is not 100% reliable, but please tell me what of the following quotes you believe is incorrect or misleading, especially but not limited to the bolded: 

"In spite of their rhetoric condemning big business prior to their rise to power, the Nazis quickly entered into a partnership with German business from as early as February 1933. That month, after being appointed Chancellor but before gaining dictatorial powers, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy" and because democracy would allegedly lead to communism.[50] He promised to destroy the German left and the trade unions, without any mention of anti-Jewish policies or foreign conquests.[218] In the following weeks, the Nazi Party received contributions from seventeen different business groups, with the largest coming from IG Farben and Deutsche Bank.[218] Historian Adam Tooze writes that the leaders of German business were therefore "willing partners in the destruction of political pluralism in Germany."[48] In exchange, owners and managers of German businesses were granted unprecedented powers to control their workforce, collective bargaining was abolished and wages were frozen at a relatively low level.[219] Business profits also rose very rapidly, as did corporate investment.[220] In addition, the Nazis privatised public properties and public services, but at the same time they increased economic state control through regulations.[221] Hitler believed that private ownership was useful in that it encouraged creative competition and technical innovation, but insisted that it had to conform to national interests and be "productive" rather than "parasitical".[222] Private property rights were conditional upon following the economic priorities set by the Nazi leadership, with high profits as a reward for firms who followed them and the threat of nationalization being used against those who did not.[223] Under Nazi economics, free competition and self-regulating markets diminished, but Hitler's social Darwinist beliefs made him retain business competition and private property as economic engines.[224][225]"

I gathered from the article that the Nazi Party might perhaps have been founded with socialist ideals, but that they took a hard right turn before they gained power, allying with reactionary groups etc.  One striking example of this argument can be found in the person of Otto Strasser, a left-leaning Nazi who was party leader until 1926 when Hitler won the leadership from him.  By 1930 he was kicked out of the party.  From Wikipedia:  "The Nazi Left itself was annihilated during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 – in which his brother was killed"

you know one thing i have to say is that i'm getting increasingly sick and tired of leftist dishonesty or maybe ignorance when it comes to these issues

but i digress

"while still leaving it to private entities that play along with national goals"

what does this mean? is this not tip toeing around the fact that the government controlled the businesses? to repeat for possibly the thousandth time government control over business is the central philosophy of socialism

 

" but usually opposed to left-wing policies"

you mean outside of their social and economic policies? and i mean what else is left to define political stance outside of social and economic policies?

 

" the Nazis quickly entered into a partnership with German business from as early as February 1933. That month, after being appointed Chancellor but before gaining dictatorial powers, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy""

"but at the same time they increased economic state control through regulations.["

"rivate property rights were conditional upon following the economic priorities set by the Nazi leadership"

did you read this at all? what do you think is being said here?

everything i just quoted is socialist policy

 

are truly trying to argue that state economic control, revoking of property rights, suppression of businesses not beneficial to the ruling regime etc etc etc are capitalist policies?



o_O.Q said:
Final-Fan said:

A brief read of Wikipeda suggests that their economic policy was highly nationalistic, but usually opposed to left-wing policies.  I mean, if you define "socialist policy" as "the policy of increasing the national authority to dictate economic activity, while still leaving it to private entities that play along with national goals," and if you say socialism has nothing to do with workforce collective bargaining etc., then I think we just plain disagree on the definition.  Now, of course I recognize that Wikipedia is not 100% reliable, but please tell me what of the following quotes you believe is incorrect or misleading, especially but not limited to the bolded: 

"In spite of their rhetoric condemning big business prior to their rise to power, the Nazis quickly entered into a partnership with German business from as early as February 1933. That month, after being appointed Chancellor but before gaining dictatorial powers, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy" and because democracy would allegedly lead to communism.[50] He promised to destroy the German left and the trade unions, without any mention of anti-Jewish policies or foreign conquests.[218] In the following weeks, the Nazi Party received contributions from seventeen different business groups, with the largest coming from IG Farben and Deutsche Bank.[218] Historian Adam Tooze writes that the leaders of German business were therefore "willing partners in the destruction of political pluralism in Germany."[48] In exchange, owners and managers of German businesses were granted unprecedented powers to control their workforce, collective bargaining was abolished and wages were frozen at a relatively low level.[219] Business profits also rose very rapidly, as did corporate investment.[220] In addition, the Nazis privatised public properties and public services, but at the same time they increased economic state control through regulations.[221] Hitler believed that private ownership was useful in that it encouraged creative competition and technical innovation, but insisted that it had to conform to national interests and be "productive" rather than "parasitical".[222] Private property rights were conditional upon following the economic priorities set by the Nazi leadership, with high profits as a reward for firms who followed them and the threat of nationalization being used against those who did not.[223] Under Nazi economics, free competition and self-regulating markets diminished, but Hitler's social Darwinist beliefs made him retain business competition and private property as economic engines.[224][225]"

I gathered from the article that the Nazi Party might perhaps have been founded with socialist ideals, but that they took a hard right turn before they gained power, allying with reactionary groups etc.  One striking example of this argument can be found in the person of Otto Strasser, a left-leaning Nazi who was party leader until 1926 when Hitler won the leadership from him.  By 1930 he was kicked out of the party.  From Wikipedia:  "The Nazi Left itself was annihilated during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 – in which his brother was killed"

you know one thing i have to say is that i'm getting increasingly sick and tired of leftist dishonesty or maybe ignorance when it comes to these issues

but i digress

"while still leaving it to private entities that play along with national goals"

what does this mean? is this not tip toeing around the fact that the government controlled the businesses? to repeat for possibly the thousandth time government control over business is the central philosophy of socialism

 

" but usually opposed to left-wing policies"

you mean outside of their social and economic policies? and i mean what else is left to define political stance outside of social and economic policies?

 

" the Nazis quickly entered into a partnership with German business from as early as February 1933. That month, after being appointed Chancellor but before gaining dictatorial powers, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy""

"but at the same time they increased economic state control through regulations.["

"rivate property rights were conditional upon following the economic priorities set by the Nazi leadership"

did you read this at all? what do you think is being said here?

everything i just quoted is socialist policy

 

are truly trying to argue that state economic control, revoking of property rights, suppression of businesses not beneficial to the ruling regime etc etc etc are capitalist policies?

Gets tired of leftist dishonesty

"Nazis were socialist, see!"

Get out!



WolfpackN64 said:
o_O.Q said:

you know one thing i have to say is that i'm getting increasingly sick and tired of leftist dishonesty or maybe ignorance when it comes to these issues

but i digress

"while still leaving it to private entities that play along with national goals"

what does this mean? is this not tip toeing around the fact that the government controlled the businesses? to repeat for possibly the thousandth time government control over business is the central philosophy of socialism

 

" but usually opposed to left-wing policies"

you mean outside of their social and economic policies? and i mean what else is left to define political stance outside of social and economic policies?

 

" the Nazis quickly entered into a partnership with German business from as early as February 1933. That month, after being appointed Chancellor but before gaining dictatorial powers, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy""

"but at the same time they increased economic state control through regulations.["

"rivate property rights were conditional upon following the economic priorities set by the Nazi leadership"

did you read this at all? what do you think is being said here?

everything i just quoted is socialist policy

 

are truly trying to argue that state economic control, revoking of property rights, suppression of businesses not beneficial to the ruling regime etc etc etc are capitalist policies?

Gets tired of leftist dishonesty

"Nazis were socialist, see!"

Get out!

well seeing as how i can actually back up my claim with evidence and logic and all you can do is dismiss it because it presumably does not align with your silly confirmation bias i think i'm doing pretty good

so far the only evidence provided to show the nazis were not socialist was i shit you not - they were fans of henry ford, they killed socialists, they privitised certain utilities(which is a fucking lie since as i have had to repeat constantly they controlled these businesses)

and that's ignoring all of the actual socialist policies they pushed - state funded health care, education, child care, state control of business etc etc etc



o_O.Q said:
Final-Fan said:

A brief read of Wikipeda suggests that their economic policy was highly nationalistic, but usually opposed to left-wing policies.  I mean, if you define "socialist policy" as "the policy of increasing the national authority to dictate economic activity, while still leaving it to private entities that play along with national goals," and if you say socialism has nothing to do with workforce collective bargaining etc., then I think we just plain disagree on the definition.  Now, of course I recognize that Wikipedia is not 100% reliable, but please tell me what of the following quotes you believe is incorrect or misleading, especially but not limited to the bolded: 

"In spite of their rhetoric condemning big business prior to their rise to power, the Nazis quickly entered into a partnership with German business from as early as February 1933. That month, after being appointed Chancellor but before gaining dictatorial powers, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy" and because democracy would allegedly lead to communism.[50] He promised to destroy the German left and the trade unions, without any mention of anti-Jewish policies or foreign conquests.[218] In the following weeks, the Nazi Party received contributions from seventeen different business groups, with the largest coming from IG Farben and Deutsche Bank.[218] Historian Adam Tooze writes that the leaders of German business were therefore "willing partners in the destruction of political pluralism in Germany."[48] In exchange, owners and managers of German businesses were granted unprecedented powers to control their workforce, collective bargaining was abolished and wages were frozen at a relatively low level.[219] Business profits also rose very rapidly, as did corporate investment.[220] In addition, the Nazis privatised public properties and public services, but at the same time they increased economic state control through regulations.[221] Hitler believed that private ownership was useful in that it encouraged creative competition and technical innovation, but insisted that it had to conform to national interests and be "productive" rather than "parasitical".[222] Private property rights were conditional upon following the economic priorities set by the Nazi leadership, with high profits as a reward for firms who followed them and the threat of nationalization being used against those who did not.[223] Under Nazi economics, free competition and self-regulating markets diminished, but Hitler's social Darwinist beliefs made him retain business competition and private property as economic engines.[224][225]"

I gathered from the article that the Nazi Party might perhaps have been founded with socialist ideals, but that they took a hard right turn before they gained power, allying with reactionary groups etc.  One striking example of this argument can be found in the person of Otto Strasser, a left-leaning Nazi who was party leader until 1926 when Hitler won the leadership from him.  By 1930 he was kicked out of the party.  From Wikipedia:  "The Nazi Left itself was annihilated during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 – in which his brother was killed"

you know one thing i have to say is that i'm getting increasingly sick and tired of leftist dishonesty or maybe ignorance when it comes to these issues

but i digress

"while still leaving it to private entities that play along with national goals"

what does this mean? is this not tip toeing around the fact that the government controlled the businesses? to repeat for possibly the thousandth time government control over business is the central philosophy of socialism

 

" but usually opposed to left-wing policies"

you mean outside of their social and economic policies? and i mean what else is left to define political stance outside of social and economic policies?

 

" the Nazis quickly entered into a partnership with German business from as early as February 1933. That month, after being appointed Chancellor but before gaining dictatorial powers, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy""

"but at the same time they increased economic state control through regulations.["

"rivate property rights were conditional upon following the economic priorities set by the Nazi leadership"

did you read this at all? what do you think is being said here?

everything i just quoted is socialist policy

 

are truly trying to argue that state economic control, revoking of property rights, suppression of businesses not beneficial to the ruling regime etc etc etc are capitalist policies?

You barely even touched on what I bolded.  Please address everything I bolded:  do you agree or disagree about what is being factually said, or do you disavow knowledge on the specific topics?  In other words, do you dispute the factual claims Wikipedia is making in the bolded text? 

No, I disagree that "democracy is antithetical to private enterprise" is socialist anything, let alone socialist policy. 

No, I disagree with your single-minded focus on government control as the sole indicator of what is and isn't socialist.  I'd like you do clearly define what socialism is in your mind, without oversimplifying because I want to be able to respond to what you say without it being dismissed as "not what you meant".  I recognize that socialism might be a broad topic so some generalizations might be necessary.  I just don't want you to misrepresent your position to me. 

No, I disagree with your implied dichotomy that everything is a binary "capitalist" or "socialist" position.  "They did this which isn't very capitalist of them, therefore they must be socialist" is a garbage argument. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Final-Fan said:
o_O.Q said:

you know one thing i have to say is that i'm getting increasingly sick and tired of leftist dishonesty or maybe ignorance when it comes to these issues

but i digress

"while still leaving it to private entities that play along with national goals"

what does this mean? is this not tip toeing around the fact that the government controlled the businesses? to repeat for possibly the thousandth time government control over business is the central philosophy of socialism

 

" but usually opposed to left-wing policies"

you mean outside of their social and economic policies? and i mean what else is left to define political stance outside of social and economic policies?

 

" the Nazis quickly entered into a partnership with German business from as early as February 1933. That month, after being appointed Chancellor but before gaining dictatorial powers, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy""

"but at the same time they increased economic state control through regulations.["

"rivate property rights were conditional upon following the economic priorities set by the Nazi leadership"

did you read this at all? what do you think is being said here?

everything i just quoted is socialist policy

 

are truly trying to argue that state economic control, revoking of property rights, suppression of businesses not beneficial to the ruling regime etc etc etc are capitalist policies?

You barely even touched on what I bolded.  Please address everything I bolded:  do you agree or disagree about what is being factually said, or do you disavow knowledge on the specific topics?  In other words, do you dispute the factual claims Wikipedia is making in the bolded text? 

No, I disagree that "democracy is antithetical to private enterprise" is socialist anything, let alone socialist policy. 

No, I disagree with your single-minded focus on government control as the sole indicator of what is and isn't socialist.  I'd like you do clearly define what socialism is in your mind, without oversimplifying because I want to be able to respond to what you say without it being dismissed as "not what you meant".  I recognize that socialism might be a broad topic so some generalizations might be necessary.  I just don't want you to misrepresent your position to me. 

No, I disagree with your implied dichotomy that everything is a binary "capitalist" or "socialist" position.  "They did this which isn't very capitalist of them, therefore they must be socialist" is a garbage argument. 

"No, I disagree that "democracy is antithetical to private enterprise""

well it must be fantastic then that i never brought up democracy because democracy is not the same as socialism

socialism can be brought about through democracy* or through a minority exerting force over a majority

 

"No, I disagree with your single-minded focus on government control as the sole indicator of what is and isn't socialist. "

well then you do not understand what socialism is and that's a fact... socialism is defined as

"socialism. noun. an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state."

and if you do not understand what something is then you probably shouldn't be discussing it until you sort that shit out

"I'd like you do clearly define what socialism is in your mind, without oversimplifying "
all you mean by oversimplifying here is refusing to frame socialism as anything but good and the fact of the matter is that it can get very very bad

" I recognize that socialism might be a broad topic"
it really is not... it becomes broad when people attempt to be dishonest and under handed

"No, I disagree with your implied dichotomy that everything is a binary "capitalist" or "socialist" position. "
i said that certain policies are socialist in nature yes and that the policies of a given government indicate whether they are socialist or capitalist but obviously i'm not speaking absolutely i'm saying that there is a tilt or shift towards one end of the spectrum over the other


o_O.Q said:
WolfpackN64 said:

Gets tired of leftist dishonesty

"Nazis were socialist, see!"

Get out!

well seeing as how i can actually back up my claim with evidence and logic and all you can do is dismiss it because it presumably does not align with your silly confirmation bias i think i'm doing pretty good

so far the only evidence provided to show the nazis were not socialist was i shit you not - they were fans of henry ford, they killed socialists, they privitised certain utilities(which is a fucking lie since as i have had to repeat constantly they controlled these businesses)

and that's ignoring all of the actual socialist policies they pushed - state funded health care, education, child care, state control of business etc etc etc

Most of  those policies where in place before the the Nazis took power.  I say it for the third and final time the fascists in both Italy and Germany came to power with the aid of capitalist but you probably going to ignore me again because of your selective reading and it doesn't support your alternate facts.



o_O.Q said:
Final-Fan said:

You barely even touched on what I bolded.  Please address everything I bolded:  do you agree or disagree about what is being factually said, or do you disavow knowledge on the specific topics?  In other words, do you dispute the factual claims Wikipedia is making in the bolded text? 

No, I disagree that "democracy is antithetical to private enterprise" is socialist anything, let alone socialist policy. 

No, I disagree with your single-minded focus on government control as the sole indicator of what is and isn't socialist.  I'd like you do clearly define what socialism is in your mind, without oversimplifying because I want to be able to respond to what you say without it being dismissed as "not what you meant".  I recognize that socialism might be a broad topic so some generalizations might be necessary.  I just don't want you to misrepresent your position to me. 

No, I disagree with your implied dichotomy that everything is a binary "capitalist" or "socialist" position.  "They did this which isn't very capitalist of them, therefore they must be socialist" is a garbage argument. 

"No, I disagree that "democracy is antithetical to private enterprise""

well it must be fantastic then that i never brought up democracy because democracy is not the same as socialism

socialism can be brought about through democracy* or through a minority exerting force over a majority

 

"No, I disagree with your single-minded focus on government control as the sole indicator of what is and isn't socialist. "

well then you do not understand what socialism is and that's a fact... socialism is defined as

"socialism. noun. an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state."

and if you do not understand what something is then you probably shouldn't be discussing it until you sort that shit out

"I'd like you do clearly define what socialism is in your mind, without oversimplifying "
all you mean by oversimplifying here is refusing to frame socialism as anything but good and the fact of the matter is that it can get very very bad

" I recognize that socialism might be a broad topic"
it really is not... it becomes broad when people attempt to be dishonest and under handed

"No, I disagree with your implied dichotomy that everything is a binary "capitalist" or "socialist" position. "
i said that certain policies are socialist in nature yes and that the policies of a given government indicate whether they are socialist or capitalist but obviously i'm not speaking absolutely i'm saying that there is a tilt or shift towards one end of the spectrum over the other

@ the part of your post that I just now bolded:  that was part of the "everything" that you had previously "just quoted" that you claimed was "socialist policy".  Now you say that it's not socialist policy, which is fine (we agree), but that vindicates me in my position that your earlier claim was wrong. 

@ your continued failure to address whether you dispute the indicated statements of fact on Wikipedia:  at this point I am going to just conclude that you do not dispute any of the specific claims I pointed out. 

@ definition of socialism:  OK, great, thanks for giving me the definition you are using.  So can you explain to me how destroying the ability of workers to collectively bargain with their employers is consistent with socialism? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Chris Hu said:
o_O.Q said:

well seeing as how i can actually back up my claim with evidence and logic and all you can do is dismiss it because it presumably does not align with your silly confirmation bias i think i'm doing pretty good

so far the only evidence provided to show the nazis were not socialist was i shit you not - they were fans of henry ford, they killed socialists, they privitised certain utilities(which is a fucking lie since as i have had to repeat constantly they controlled these businesses)

and that's ignoring all of the actual socialist policies they pushed - state funded health care, education, child care, state control of business etc etc etc

Most of  those policies where in place before the the Nazis took power.  I say it for the third and final time the fascists in both Italy and Germany came to power with the aid of capitalist but you probably going to ignore me again because of your selective reading and it doesn't support your alternate facts.

"Most of  those policies where in place before the the Nazis took power."

and yet they kept them in their government... WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT TELL YOU?

and that's not true btw, some apparently were but hitler also introduced loads of social programs

 

"I say it for the third and final time the fascists in both Italy and Germany came to power with the aid of capitalist"

and karl marx was funded by capitalists... so fucking what

socialism in case you did not know it is an ideology that was created by the rich to trick the idiots below them into walking into slavery willingly

whether hitler was supported by capitalists or not has no bearing on whether he was a socialist or not... the only thing that matters is his policies

 

"it doesn't support your alternate facts."

name one, i'm not the one claiming that nazis were capitalists because they privatised businesses even though they still controlled them

Last edited by o_O.Q - on 02 September 2018

Final-Fan said:
o_O.Q said:

"No, I disagree that "democracy is antithetical to private enterprise""

well it must be fantastic then that i never brought up democracy because democracy is not the same as socialism

socialism can be brought about through democracy* or through a minority exerting force over a majority

 

"No, I disagree with your single-minded focus on government control as the sole indicator of what is and isn't socialist. "

well then you do not understand what socialism is and that's a fact... socialism is defined as

"socialism. noun. an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state."

and if you do not understand what something is then you probably shouldn't be discussing it until you sort that shit out

"I'd like you do clearly define what socialism is in your mind, without oversimplifying "
all you mean by oversimplifying here is refusing to frame socialism as anything but good and the fact of the matter is that it can get very very bad

" I recognize that socialism might be a broad topic"
it really is not... it becomes broad when people attempt to be dishonest and under handed

"No, I disagree with your implied dichotomy that everything is a binary "capitalist" or "socialist" position. "
i said that certain policies are socialist in nature yes and that the policies of a given government indicate whether they are socialist or capitalist but obviously i'm not speaking absolutely i'm saying that there is a tilt or shift towards one end of the spectrum over the other

@ the part of your post that I just now bolded:  that was part of the "everything" that you had previously "just quoted" that you claimed was "socialist policy".  Now you say that it's not socialist policy, which is fine (we agree), but that vindicates me in my position that your earlier claim was wrong. 

@ your continued failure to address whether you dispute the indicated statements of fact on Wikipedia:  at this point I am going to just conclude that you do not dispute any of the specific claims I pointed out. 

@ definition of socialism:  OK, great, thanks for giving me the definition you are using.  So can you explain to me how destroying the ability of workers to collectively bargain with their employers is consistent with socialism? 

"the part of your post that I just now bolded:  that was part of the "everything" that you had previously "just quoted" that you claimed was "socialist policy".  Now you say that it's not socialist policy, which is fine (we agree), but that vindicates me in my position that your earlier claim was wrong.  "

i can't really parse the point you're making here, mostly likely because as i've said you're trying desperately to be underhanded

post the claim i made that was wrong and explain how it was wrong

 

" your continued failure to address whether you dispute the indicated statements of fact on Wikipedia"

i reposted the claims made in the wikipedia entry... and demonstrated how they disprove your argument

in summary your own wikipedia article proved you wrong

"" the Nazis quickly entered into a partnership with German business from as early as February 1933. That month, after being appointed Chancellor but before gaining dictatorial powers, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy""

"but at the same time they increased economic state control through regulations.["

"rivate property rights were conditional upon following the economic priorities set by the Nazi leadership""

at this point i'm not really sure if its a lack of reading comprehension or just plain dishonesty that i'm seeing here...

 

"So can you explain to me how destroying the ability of workers to collectively bargain with their employers is consistent with socialism? "

because socialists are too stupid to understand that taking away individual rights and power and handing them over to the state doesn't necessarily mean that they'll be better off

the evidence repeatedly points out that the result is the opposite

at its core its a stupid ideology when taken to certain extremes

some degree of collective decision making must be undertaken obviously or else a society would just dissolve, but it always has to be tempered with the need for individual freedom