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Forums - Politics - Facebook, Apple, YouTube, and Spotify Remove Alex Jones from their Platforms

 

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Aeolus451 said:
SanAndreasX said:

Your rights to free speech end at my property line, or when you're on a server I paid for and own. While you're on my property or my server, you will abide by my rules, or you will be denied the use of my property. If you won't voluntarily leave my property, legal actions will be taken. In cyberspace, that will be a restraining order against you, and in the real world, criminal tresspassing charges will be filed. The same thing goes for Facebook. The platform is their private property, so they make the rules and they get to decide who uses it. Not you, not the government.

Privately owned social media platforms are a privilege, not a right.

There's nuisances to that. If you make a service that everyone uses and it's become vital in today's society, don't be surprised if you get regulated if you abuse it too much. Alot of businesses were regulated because they got too big or too intertwined into the function of society. It's the price of becoming that successful. Social media just incentivized the right to regulate them to protect their free speech (which extends to everyone). The EU already opened the door to regulation from the government side.

We're not in the EU, we're in the United States, so European law doesn't really apply beyond FB adapting its standards in accordance with EU law. EU regulations don't empower Congress, the President, or the courts to ignore the United States Constitution. The EU's constitutional protections differ from those of the US. In the US, there is no such thing as "hate speech", as the First Amendment does not define such, although private platform holders in the US may set the rules for their users. In many European countries, hate speech is a thing and it can have devastating legal consequences. European-style hate speech laws, as an example, would never survive a Constitutional challenge in the United States. I probably wouldn't use Europe in this argument.

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution does not compel Facebook to give a platform to Alex Jones in any way, shape or form. It does protect the right of Facebook to have the speech they choose to have on their platform without government interference or retaliation, which includes the fact that they cannot compel FB to host Jones. The First Amendment protects you from being arrested by the government or having your property unlawfully searched and seized by the government because of something you said. It doesn't protect you from the rules of a private platform holder.

Unlike with Windows and Internet Explorer in 1996,  Facebook and Apple are not necessities, and they do not constitute a monopoly. There are many other competing social media platforms, and Jones can also hire someone to build him a social media platform where he is free to post whatever content he sees fit. Anybody that can log into a computer can log into his platform. The lack of advertising compared to FB is Jones's problem, not Zuckerberg's. If Jones so desires, he can even try to set up a competing platform to Facebook and Youtube geared towards conservatives.

Government regulation of free speech is not free speech. Getting banned from a social media platform owned and paid for by someone else is not a violation of your free speech.



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contestgamer said:
SpokenTruth said:

The irony of the private party party wanting to nationalize private property.

OK, well at least it's clear that if Facebook bans all african americans from accessing it's website in a TOS update you're all for that. At least we know where you stand now.

It's clear that if a Satanic church wants to host a public rally with a blood sacrifice on the campus of private Christian schools like Bob Jones, BYU, Oral Roberts, or Liberty, they are legally entitled to do so, and the government must force Falwell to comply. Otherwise, their constitutional rights to freedom of speech are being violated.

See, I can use strawman arguments too!

Last edited by SanAndreasX - on 07 August 2018

SanAndreasX said:
contestgamer said:

OK, well at least it's clear that if Facebook bans all african americans from accessing it's website in a TOS update you're all for that. At least we know where you stand now.

It's clear that if a Satanic church wants to host a public rally with a blood sacrifice on the campus of private Christian schools like Bob Jones, BYU, Oral Roberts, or Liberty, they are legally entitled to do so, and the government must force Falwell to comply. Otherwise, their constitutional rights to freedom of speech are being violated.

See, I can use strawman arguments too!

Your arguments are that TOS reigns supreme, so then you by extension will support them banning black people if they so choose. I mean TOS is up to the platform owners right, it's what it is, you cant complain about it. FB, YT are enormous platforms that cover a huge chunk of the social marketplace. Individual churches do not.



contestgamer said:
SanAndreasX said:

It's clear that if a Satanic church wants to host a public rally with a blood sacrifice on the campus of private Christian schools like Bob Jones, BYU, Oral Roberts, or Liberty, they are legally entitled to do so, and the government must force Falwell to comply. Otherwise, their constitutional rights to freedom of speech are being violated.

See, I can use strawman arguments too!

Your arguments are that TOS reigns supreme, so then you by extension will support them banning black people if they so choose. I mean TOS is up to the platform owners right, it's what it is, you cant complain about it. FB, YT are enormous platforms that cover a huge chunk of the social marketplace. Individual churches do not.

Your argument is that I can go into your house and act like a complete shit and you will have no choice but to sit there and take it, because to remove me from your premises would be violating my free speech. So keep strawmanning.

FB and Youtube are luxuries, not necessities.

Furthermore, FB and Youtube have the right to be free of government interference in the curation of their platforms and userbases. The First Amendment doesn't say anything about them being forced to give Jones a platform. It restrains the government, not Facebook or Youtube. You may not like their reach, but they are not part of the government, and there are other competitors. They are not monopolies. Market size is Jones's problem, not FB or Google's.



pokoko said:
DonFerrari said: 

So are you against his banning and think these companies are acting backwards to what the propose as being public spaces with freedom of speech? From your posts I couldn't see that.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

First, I never said Alex Jones should be banned for saying Obama is a demon.  

This is the paragraph where I mentioned that:  "Honestly, the guy needs to reclassify as entertainment. It's just mind boggling that anyone takes him seriously. This is the guy that hinted Obama was actually a demon. A DEMON."  Do you see me calling for a ban over that anywhere in that paragraph?  Stop trying to twist that.  That's dishonest.

As for "freedom of speech," I don't really understand what you are trying to say.  Are you suggesting the government should decide what private sector businesses show as content via regulation?  If so, then I think that is a terrible idea.  No conservative should ever support that.

Regarding his ban, I don't know why he got banned.  If he violated their TOS then the ban was earned.  If he did not violate their TOS then I would not support their decision.  However, so far I haven't seen anyone defending him try to make a case that he did not violate TOS restrictions.  Are you claiming that he did not?

Nope government shouldn't regulate then. People must talk against it. But what we are seeing is people saying they don't like the guy so it's good that he was banned.

What I'm claiming is that we do have plenty of left wing pages that violate the TOS and get free pass. Which basically shows the bias of the platform and that they aren't really for freedom of speech as they say they are. And also that we have a lot of mini dictators on internet asking for the people they disagree to be banned and shunned.

SpokenTruth said:
DonFerrari said:

BLM have certainly caused a lot of violence and damage. Are they banned? I see more they going to TV and defend their point than they losing platforms.

Several of the pages from left wing in Brazil defend violence against police, death to a political oponent, kill middle class, etc. None of them were banned from these platforms. Or in this case you'll see they aren't really endangering anyone?

1. BLM is a response to violence, not the source of it.  That said, it's also not a centralized or individual group like Alex Jones/Info Wars.  BLM pages on Facebook are not directed by a larger organization.  It is localized and operated by individuals.  If one of them advocates unprovoked violence, report them.  But keep in mind that because of that decentralization, it opens up the opportunity for false flag operations.  The largest BLM community on Facebook was recently shut down because it was a scam from a white Australia guy and Russia bought thousands of pro-BLM ads.  Those BLM pages that advocate unprovoked violence may not even be BLM at all.  So yes, the left is subject to TOS violations too.

2. Your laws in Brazil are different and I don't know them enough to comment on what rights, laws and platform TOS policies apply. You may be thinking that what you see on Brazilian social media is the same as US social media, based on what you listed above (advocating the death of a political opponent, death to the middle class...) that isn't common.

1 - Yes sure, and there is no racism against white people... And all those BLM leaders are lying when identifying as leaders?

2 - Didn't say the law is the same, in fact one of the first post on this thread I pointed the law is different.

I just pointed that FB have no qualms in breaking their own TOS in Brazil to protect left wing pages or to ban right wing pages. And because that is configured as political persecution the government may demand explanations from FB and that is what they done (myself I don't think the government should, but that is the current law and allows them). But much less I think people should be applauding FB for not being clear on their bias and pretending to be neutral while acting one sided.

pokoko said:
irstupid said:

NO.

The free market is all 100% about market prices and how supply and demand dictate economy prices without government intervention in regulating the market.

I know you love to look up Wikipedia, so go ahead and do so. You will find that I am correct.

Thus as I said, the free market would put those people out business if what they did truly offended people. People would quit listening to Alex Jones and he would make no money talking online and thus no longer do it. The bakery would have no customers and thus make no money and go out of business. No one would watch rosseane and the company thus would make no advertising dollars and pull the show.

Again, all ECONOMICS related with no government regulations. That is the free market.

Just as the government coming and regulating how much a company can charge goes against the free market, a company firing someone or banning someone for their own single policy is against free market. Free market is solely determined by the consumers. If consumers want the product and consume, then the free market dictates what the price of said product is. If there is no demand, there is no more supply.

A company deciding what content they provide is NOT the same as the government regulating prices.

It's supply AND demand.  Supply is every bit as important as demand.  A free market is not just about consumers, it's also about suppliers.  In a free market, suppliers have the freedom to decide what they supply.  Otherwise, it would be a regulated market.  You can't ignore half the equation.  

You're wrong on that point.

There was demand for Alex content and those companies profited from it as well. So it was much more folding to public pressure and/or left wing internal team (Zucherberg confessed to the Senate that most of his team is left wing) than demand/supply of free market.

Alara317 said:
contestgamer said:

Well then they should be turned in to public utilities so that free speech is allowed on all these platforms. Your argument is basically that Facebook is exercising its free speech by not allowing someone elses. That makes no sense. If FB disapproves of his message then make a post or speech about it and combat it that way. What they're doing is censorship. This is a symptom of that disturbing push we have in our society to make our communities more inclusive, safer and tolerant of eachother. But we achieve this by being intolerant to those on the fringes.

Wow. You really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and it's hilarious to see and hear the arguments you're trying to make. 

The Freedom of Speech gives you, as a citizen, the right to say whatever you want as long as it's not threatening or outright lying (Libel/Slander.) The first amendment simply states that a person is legally free to have and hold whatever opinion they want and they have the freedom from the government to express those opinions. 

From the government. 

Your statement is fundamentally flawed on multiple levels because you're assuming that me saying it's perfectly within Facebook's rights to not host someone's rants is the same as taking away their right to free speech. Facebook is not taking away anyone's right to free speech, because Alex Jones is still legally allowed to say what he wants in a public forum, but that doesn't mean that Facebook wants to allow him to say it on Facebook. 

You seem to be completely overlooking the difference between a public and private establishment, which is why your argument completely falls apart and why I laugh at you. Facebook is not a government-hosted website, and neither is Youtube. Sure, those companies are huge and you might be foolish enough to believe that just because so many people have access to it that it's a public place, but it's not. Facebook is a privately owned business, and therefore facebook can choose to do business or not do business with whomever they chose. If they chose not to do business with someone screaming conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, then they have every right to. Just like your local cafe has every right to not host you if you start making racial slurs in their stores or I have every right to boot you out of my house if you start trying to convince me that Gays are Satan's messengers or whatever. 

Your fundamental ignorance is that you can't differentiate between public and private, and while I'd love to educate you on that, your response thus far has convinced me you aren't willing to listen.

So in short, you are wrong. Educate yourself on the application of free speech in a public establishment vs a private establishment before you speak again. 

And you can't differentiate that it is proprietary but not private, everyone have access to it and even politicians, political parties, government departments, cities, etc have pages over there.

Also no one really seem anyone bothered to reply on the speeches on universities from right wing figures that had violent left wing protests and where cancelled... and also most here wouldn't allow private companies to openly discriminate and refuse service. So it really is "free market" for them if it supports their side.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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contestgamer said:
ClassicGamingWizzz said:

lol i hope you just joking and trolling around here with these kind of comments

Look obviously hate speech is BS. My point is why do we need to regulate it? We can ignore it. Works well for me

It might work for you but does it work for everyone?

It's nice that you have so much faith in humanity und obviously we should stand up against hate speech but what if that's not enough and hate speech succeeds?
History shows us what will happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht



DonFerrari said:

And you can't differentiate that it is proprietary but not private, everyone have access to it and even politicians, political parties, government departments, cities, etc have pages over there.

Also no one really seem anyone bothered to reply on the speeches on universities from right wing figures that had violent left wing protests and where cancelled... and also most here wouldn't allow private companies to openly discriminate and refuse service. So it really is "free market" for them if it supports their side.

That's not how the law works. No matter how widespread and easily accessible Facebook and Youtube are, that still doesn't make them any less than private companies. 



Alara317 said:
DonFerrari said:

And you can't differentiate that it is proprietary but not private, everyone have access to it and even politicians, political parties, government departments, cities, etc have pages over there.

Also no one really seem anyone bothered to reply on the speeches on universities from right wing figures that had violent left wing protests and where cancelled... and also most here wouldn't allow private companies to openly discriminate and refuse service. So it really is "free market" for them if it supports their side.

That's not how the law works. No matter how widespread and easily accessible Facebook and Youtube are, that still doesn't make them any less than private companies. 

It doesn't have to do with being widespread.

It have to do with PUBLIC access. It doesn't really jump from government owned to private ownership (like people confusing it with someone entering your house or pub to break it or bad mouth you)

It's like, on the company you work there are fences and you can't enter, but very unlikely an university campus even if private will be locked out. Or hospital, lock your door and forbid people from even entering the premises and see how it work.

This just seems like the confusion made in another thread were public meant free and private meant paid.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
Alara317 said:

That's not how the law works. No matter how widespread and easily accessible Facebook and Youtube are, that still doesn't make them any less than private companies. 

It doesn't have to do with being widespread.

It have to do with PUBLIC access. It doesn't really jump from government owned to private ownership (like people confusing it with someone entering your house or pub to break it or bad mouth you)

It's like, on the company you work there are fences and you can't enter, but very unlikely an university campus even if private will be locked out. Or hospital, lock your door and forbid people from even entering the premises and see how it work.

This just seems like the confusion made in another thread were public meant free and private meant paid.

Anyone can walk into a Wal Mart or McDonalds, but if you think they're not gonna be booted when they start yelling at customers about their conspiracy theories, then you're sadly mistaken. How is facebook any different aside from it being digital? 

If you hosted a forum and someone joined said forum and were spouting the values of the KKK, would you ban them or would you shrug and go, "Welp, free speech says I have to let them say their things!" No, you wouldn't (Unless you agreed with that racist rant or your website was a KKK website...) 

Furthermore, if I walked into your house and started shouting at your kids about how we needed to eradicate the jews, and that their unwillingness to participate in cleansing was going to have the government send hit squads after them, you'd boot me right out your front door (and if you were American, probably shoot me). 

Facebook, Apple, Youtube, and any other internet website - no matter how easily accessed by the public or widespread or easy to get an account - are not obligated to allow anyone to use their platform to get their message out. If they decide they don't agree with Alex Jones and don't want him using their platforms to spread his beliefs, then that's their choice. Nobody's free speech is being trampled on because a platform holder decided to not allow their platform to be used to spread hate speech. 

I'm honestly quite shocked that there are so few people who actually understand this. What is so hard to grasp? Freedom of speech doesn't start and stop with racist rants and doesn't protect you from the consequences of what you say. If something you said makes a company not want to associate with you, then too bad for you. Shouldn't have said it. 



SanAndreasX said:
Aeolus451 said:

There's nuisances to that. If you make a service that everyone uses and it's become vital in today's society, don't be surprised if you get regulated if you abuse it too much. Alot of businesses were regulated because they got too big or too intertwined into the function of society. It's the price of becoming that successful. Social media just incentivized the right to regulate them to protect their free speech (which extends to everyone). The EU already opened the door to regulation from the government side.

We're not in the EU, we're in the United States, so European law doesn't really apply beyond FB adapting its standards in accordance with EU law. EU regulations don't empower Congress, the President, or the courts to ignore the United States Constitution. The EU's constitutional protections differ from those of the US. In the US, there is no such thing as "hate speech", as the First Amendment does not define such, although private platform holders in the US may set the rules for their users. In many European countries, hate speech is a thing and it can have devastating legal consequences. European-style hate speech laws, as an example, would never survive a Constitutional challenge in the United States. I probably wouldn't use Europe in this argument.

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution does not compel Facebook to give a platform to Alex Jones in any way, shape or form. It does protect the right of Facebook to have the speech they choose to have on their platform without government interference or retaliation, which includes the fact that they cannot compel FB to host Jones. The First Amendment protects you from being arrested by the government or having your property unlawfully searched and seized by the government because of something you said. It doesn't protect you from the rules of a private platform holder.

Unlike with Windows and Internet Explorer in 1996,  Facebook and Apple are not necessities, and they do not constitute a monopoly. There are many other competing social media platforms, and Jones can also hire someone to build him a social media platform where he is free to post whatever content he sees fit. Anybody that can log into a computer can log into his platform. The lack of advertising compared to FB is Jones's problem, not Zuckerberg's. If Jones so desires, he can even try to set up a competing platform to Facebook and Youtube geared towards conservatives.

Government regulation of free speech is not free speech. Getting banned from a social media platform owned and paid for by someone else is not a violation of your free speech.

Both the US or EU are big enough that any laws they impose on the internet will affect the world. The constitution can be amended and new laws made. I'm making an argument for freedom of speech laws to be extended to political speech on social media. The internet and social media didn't exist then but if it did, it would have been included under what's covered  with free speech especially with political speech.  The first amendment was created because we believe in freedom of speech as a principal and any laws created to protect it should be adapted to what's happening in the present.

Alot of businesses were regulated because they became integral to society. It has nothing to do with a monopoly in the way you mean that. They are important in how we communicate with everyone worldwide and recreating another social media that widely used or big is near impossible. I disagree with you on everything.