Forums - General Discussion - This Must Be Addressed-Game Theory Editor Ronnie Edwards Passes Away at 25

pokoko said:
CaptainExplosion said:

Seriously? Is the world really that apathetic? Disgusting.

How can people care so little about the mental health of people with self-destructive tendencies?

Then you stop it.  Go ahead, we'll wait here.  

Climb off your high horse.  It sure as hell isn't as easy as you make it sound.  It's not like turning off a valve.  Human beings are incredibly complex, both psychologically and physiologically.  There is no wonder cure.  It's probably always going to exist as long as people have emotions, to be honest, and our mental states are ruled by chemical processes.

No, it's not like turning off a valve, but recognizing that there is a problem and talking about it - even if it is on the internet - sure helps.

pokoko said:

Ultimately, a person only has control over themselves.  The best you can do is try to convince them see things differently.  Even then, we all have our own demons, our own problems, our own tragedies, and there certainly isn't a magic fix for all of them.

Idk if it was your intention, but it really felt like you were saying that people have depression because they don't want to see the good in the world. It's not about "convincing them to see things differently". They want to see things differently, they just can't.

Everyone has their own demons, but the demons look much scarier for people with mental disorders.



G O O D B O I

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LuccaCardoso1 said:
pokoko said:

Then you stop it.  Go ahead, we'll wait here.  

Climb off your high horse.  It sure as hell isn't as easy as you make it sound.  It's not like turning off a valve.  Human beings are incredibly complex, both psychologically and physiologically.  There is no wonder cure.  It's probably always going to exist as long as people have emotions, to be honest, and our mental states are ruled by chemical processes.

No, it's not like turning off a valve, but recognizing that there is a problem and talking about it - even if it is on the internet - sure helps.

pokoko said:

Ultimately, a person only has control over themselves.  The best you can do is try to convince them see things differently.  Even then, we all have our own demons, our own problems, our own tragedies, and there certainly isn't a magic fix for all of them.

Idk if it was your intention, but it really felt like you were saying that people have depression because they don't want to see the good in the world. It's not about "convincing them to see things differently". They want to see things differently, they just can't.

Everyone has their own demons, but the demons look much scarier for people with mental disorders.

I never said anything even close to not talk about it.  I said nothing like that at all.  

I also didn't say anything about "people have depression because they don't want to see the good in the world."  Not even close.

Edit:  Did you quote the wrong post?

Last edited by pokoko - on 26 July 2018

LuccaCardoso1 said:
CaptainExplosion said:

Seriously? Is the world really that apathetic? Disgusting.

How can people care so little about the mental health of people with self-destructive tendencies?

Because people usually only care about things that affect them directly. And a scary amount of people still think that mental disorders are not real problems. I've lost count of how many times I've told someone I had anxiety and the person said "everyone has anxiety sometimes" or something along those lines.

Well that's just horrible. I care deeply about what happens to other people. We can't just act like suicide is a part of life, because it's not a part of life.

For far too long people on the verge of suicide have been flat-out ignored by a society that's been made to believe it's the victim's fault. It's NOT the victim's fault.

LuccaCardoso1 said:
pokoko said:

Then you stop it.  Go ahead, we'll wait here.  

Climb off your high horse.  It sure as hell isn't as easy as you make it sound.  It's not like turning off a valve.  Human beings are incredibly complex, both psychologically and physiologically.  There is no wonder cure.  It's probably always going to exist as long as people have emotions, to be honest, and our mental states are ruled by chemical processes.

No, it's not like turning off a valve, but recognizing that there is a problem and talking about it - even if it is on the internet - sure helps.

pokoko said:

Ultimately, a person only has control over themselves.  The best you can do is try to convince them see things differently.  Even then, we all have our own demons, our own problems, our own tragedies, and there certainly isn't a magic fix for all of them.

Idk if it was your intention, but it really felt like you were saying that people have depression because they don't want to see the good in the world. It's not about "convincing them to see things differently". They want to see things differently, they just can't.

Everyone has their own demons, but the demons look much scarier for people with mental disorders.

And they don't want to die either. They just haven't found the right way of getting out of their situation. :(



I agree that something needs to be done to help those suffering from mental health problems, but I can't say I know how to solve it, the best I can think of is that people who are suffering need to seek help and when they do, they can get it. I appreciate Matt putting out this video, its an important message and if it helps some of his large fanbase then it's done some good.

But that video was almost too much for me, it reminded me of one of my worst fears, that someone very close to me will kill themselves. For my entire adult life I've been close to someone who for many years suffered from depression, eventually attempting suicide, it was my brother and luckily another family member found him and he was rushed to hospital. Ever since then the idea haunts me and if I don't hear from him for a while I make an excuse to see him or get somebody else who knows to check. Years before the incident, his depression was apparent to me and I managed to talk with him about it several times, he didn't want to though and I'm not sure he was ever completely honest with me or the few others that knew. It was a very difficult time for the few of us involved, I tried to handle it as best I could. He seemed to improve and in time I moved away (we shared a place for a few years), but obviously he was not well and just concealing it more, I know he hated that his depression had effects on me and other family members. After I took him home from the hospital, we talked about what he was going to do regarding therapy, his job and stuff like that. This was, about 6 or 7 years ago and for a while the subject has hardly come up, it does now and then, but maybe he's just hiding it, it's hard to know. I think I trust him to be honest but there's that nagging feeling. He has quit drinking, the night he attempted suicide he was drinking heavily and I think that helped push him, so I see him quitting drink as a sign that he doesn't feel comfortable letting his mind be affected and his judgement altered. He has told me that on that night, the thought just appeared in his mind, a sudden decision that he was going to kill himself and he tried. Being drunk probably also saved his life as he texted my sister weird messages that he didn't really know he was sending, that got her concerned and luckily another family member lived close by and went round to find him barely conscious and bleeding. I don't even want to think of what that was like, it's a horrible feeling. Meanwhile I was completely unaware, I only found out in the morning. I have regrets about that time, things I couldn't have known and I realise that. That makes it scarier though, that even if things seem normal, I might find out he killed himself one day. I'm not consumed by these thoughts and worries, its just that they will probably always be there from time to time. I do think he's better, if not completely, then significantly, I just have to hope if he is suffering he will talk about it. This video seemed to describe a similar situation except nobody was able to intervene and I feel deeply sorry for Matt and those involved, I consider myself very lucky in comparison.


So yeah, depression is a weird thing and I really don't think there will ever be a complete fix, you'll have sufferers that won't help themselves and then those that want help but are condemned by those close to them. The signs can be totally different too, so you could miss them or interpret depression when its actually something else. I currently work with at least one person who is suffering from a breakdown, nobody treats him differently though. It's a difficult issue and neither the sufferer or others really know how to handle it. I think thats the general situation with mental health.

Last edited by Landale_Star - on 26 July 2018

Landale_Star said:

I agree that something needs to be done to help those suffering from mental health problems, but I can't say I know how to solve it, the best I can think of is that people who are suffering need to seek help and when they do, they can get it. I appreciate Matt putting out this video, its an important message and if it helps some of his large fanbase then it's done some good.

But that video was almost too much for me, it reminded me of one of my worst fears, that someone very close to me will kill themselves. For my entire adult life I've been close to someone who for many years suffered from depression, eventually attempting suicide, it was my brother and luckily another family member found him and he was rushed to hospital. Ever since then the idea haunts me and if I don't hear from him for a while I make an excuse to see him or get somebody else who knows to check. Years before the incident, his depression was apparent to me and I managed to talk with him about it several times, he didn't want to though and I'm not sure he was ever completely honest with me or the few others that knew. It was a very difficult time for the few of us involved, I tried to handle it as best I could. He seemed to improve and in time I moved away (we shared a place for a few years), but obviously he was not well and just concealing it more, I know he hated that his depression had effects on me and other family members. After I took him home from the hospital, we talked about what he was going to do regarding therapy, his job and stuff like that. This was, about 6 or 7 years ago and for a while the subject has hardly come up, it does now and then, but maybe he's just hiding it, it's hard to know. I think I trust him to be honest but there's that nagging feeling. He has quit drinking, the night he attempted suicide he was drinking heavily and I think that helped push him, so I see him quitting drink as a sign that he doesn't feel comfortable letting his mind be affected and his judgement altered. He has told me that on that night, the thought just appeared in his mind, a sudden decision that he was going to kill himself and he tried. Being drunk probably also saved his life as he texted my sister weird messages that he didn't really know he was sending, that got her concerned and luckily another family member lived close by and went round to find him barely conscious and bleeding. I don't even want to think of what that was like, it's a horrible feeling. Meanwhile I was completely unaware, I only found out in the morning. I have regrets about that time, things I couldn't have known and I realise that. That makes it scarier though, that even if things seem normal, I might find out he killed himself one day. I'm not consumed by these thoughts and worries, its just that they will probably always be there from time to time. I do think he's better, if not completely, then significantly, I just have to hope if he is suffering he will talk about it. This video seemed to describe a similar situation except nobody was able to intervene and I feel deeply sorry for Matt and those involved, I consider myself very lucky in comparison.


So yeah, depression is a weird thing and I really don't think there will ever be a complete fix, you'll have sufferers that won't help themselves and then those that want help but are condemned by those close to them. The signs can be totally different too, so you could miss them or interpret depression when its actually something else. I currently work with at least one person who is suffering from a breakdown, nobody treats him differently though. It's a difficult issue and neither the sufferer or others really know how to handle it. I think thats the general situation with mental health.

Losing someone I love to suicide has become my worst fear too. I'm even afraid to hear about people uploading to DeviantArt or YouTube taking their own lives, which is why on DeviantArt, whenever I see art that might've stemmed from psychological issues, I ask the artist if they're ok.

The universe would be better off if suicide never existed. There's no need for something that horrible. :(



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pokoko said:
LuccaCardoso1 said:

No, it's not like turning off a valve, but recognizing that there is a problem and talking about it - even if it is on the internet - sure helps.

I never said anything even close to not talk about it.  I said nothing like that at all.  

CaptainExplosion said that talking about mental health issues for a few weeks when a disaster happens and then forgetting about it is disgusting. You said he wasn't doing anything to help. I said that even talking about it is already helping a bit. Got it? I'm not saying that you said anything close to "don't talk about it".

pokoko said:
LuccaCardoso1 said: 

Idk if it was your intention, but it really felt like you were saying that people have depression because they don't want to see the good in the world. It's not about "convincing them to see things differently". They want to see things differently, they just can't.

 

I also didn't say anything about "people have depression because they don't want to see the good in the world."  Not even close.

Well, it sure sounded like you did. 

"The best thing you can do is try to convince them to see things differently". You're implying that people with depression have to be "convinced" to see thing differently, as if they weren't already trying. People with depression don't see the world as a bad place, it just factually is a bad place. That's why depression is called a "mental disorder", because chemicals in the person's brain are all messed up. Trying to convince the person to see things differently might make the person want to fake not having the issue in front of you, but it will never really fix it.



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LuccaCardoso1 said:
pokoko said:

I never said anything even close to not talk about it.  I said nothing like that at all.  

CaptainExplosion said that talking about mental health issues for a few weeks when a disaster happens and then forgetting about it is disgusting. You said he wasn't doing anything to help. I said that even talking about it is already helping a bit. Got it? I'm not saying that you said anything close to "don't talk about it".

pokoko said:

I also didn't say anything about "people have depression because they don't want to see the good in the world."  Not even close.

Well, it sure sounded like you did. 

"The best thing you can do is try to convince them to see things differently". You're implying that people with depression have to be "convinced" to see thing differently, as if they weren't already trying. People with depression don't see the world as a bad place, it just factually is a bad place. That's why depression is called a "mental disorder", because chemicals in the person's brain are all messed up. Trying to convince the person to see things differently might make the person want to fake not having the issue in front of you, but it will never really fix it.

Then what else can we do to save them? Isn't there a way to alleviate someone's depression and make sure it never comes back?



CaptainExplosion said:

Then what else can we do to save them?

1. Talk to them about it. Let them know that you are there for them and that you know it's not their fault. If they trust you, they are more likely to try and talk to you if something is wrong.

2. Seek professional help. Someone who knows what they're doing will surely know what to do to help that person.

If you're talking in more of a broader sense, as in saving people who you don't know and preventing future tragedies, the best we can do is to spread the word. With more information about mental disorders out there, there is less blaming the victim and fewer tragedies happening.



G O O D B O I

LuccaCardoso1 said:
CaptainExplosion said:

Then what else can we do to save them?

1. Talk to them about it. Let them know that you are there for them and that you know it's not their fault. If they trust you, they are more likely to try and talk to you if something is wrong.

2. Seek professional help. Someone who knows what they're doing will surely know what to do to help that person.

If you're talking in more of a broader sense, as in saving people who you don't know and preventing future tragedies, the best we can do is to spread the word. With more information about mental disorders out there, there is less blaming the victim and fewer tragedies happening.

I've been talking to more people I meet about their problems and telling them to seek help.



LuccaCardoso1 said: 
pokoko said:

I also didn't say anything about "people have depression because they don't want to see the good in the world."  Not even close.

Well, it sure sounded like you did. 

"The best thing you can do is try to convince them to see things differently". You're implying that people with depression have to be "convinced" to see thing differently, as if they weren't already trying. People with depression don't see the world as a bad place, it just factually is a bad place. That's why depression is called a "mental disorder", because chemicals in the person's brain are all messed up. Trying to convince the person to see things differently might make the person want to fake not having the issue in front of you, but it will never really fix it.

So if a person thinks that suicide is the only way then you SHOULD NOT try to convince them to see things differently?  Seriously?  Because THAT is what I was implying.  Everything else is YOU INFERRING.  

Landale_Star said: 

So yeah, depression is a weird thing and I really don't think there will ever be a complete fix, you'll have sufferers that won't help themselves and then those that want help but are condemned by those close to them. The signs can be totally different too, so you could miss them or interpret depression when its actually something else. I currently work with at least one person who is suffering from a breakdown, nobody treats him differently though. It's a difficult issue and neither the sufferer or others really know how to handle it. I think thats the general situation with mental health.

That's just the simple truth.

Years ago, the wife of my first cousin was murdered.  It completely crushed him but he kept living.  The family gave him every bit of support they could.  Eventually he got his sense of humor back, his life started to return to normal, and he even got remarried.  Then one day he killed himself.  Out of the blue.  Of course, it wasn't out of the blue for him.  Everyone knew that his first wife had been his world but he hid everything related to that.  He kept it all inside himself, even though his family would have given everything to help him. 

That's why it makes me so furious when people act like this is something simple that can just be magicked away.  People try their best and it still happens.