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Forums - Politics - US Supreme Court: Christian baker does not have to bake 'the gay cake'

Kaneman! said:

It's his company, he is not the employee, but the owner. That is the difference you fail to realise.

If the projectionist doesn't do his job in accordance to his beliefs, that's fine, he'll get fired for that as a consequence.

If an owner refuses to do it, it'll cost him money and buisiness.
Forcing a business to do a product/offer a service that the state wants is pretty much forced labour.

Well to be clear I don't think anyone is literally asking to physically force the guy to bake a cake cause yes that would be forced labor. But that's obvious, I'm not sure how one could actually physically force someone to bake a cake LOL.

By forcing I mean law enforcing as in, if he refuses he gets fined which in the end goes along your last line: it will cost the owner money and perhaps business.



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CrazyGamer2017 said:
Kaneman! said:

It's his company, he is not the employee, but the owner. That is the difference you fail to realise.

If the projectionist doesn't do his job in accordance to his beliefs, that's fine, he'll get fired for that as a consequence.

If an owner refuses to do it, it'll cost him money and buisiness.
Forcing a business to do a product/offer a service that the state wants is pretty much forced labour.

Well to be clear I don't think anyone is literally asking to physically force the guy to bake a cake cause yes that would be forced labor. But that's obvious, I'm not sure how one could actually physically force someone to bake a cake LOL.

By forcing I mean law enforcing as in, if he refuses he gets fined which in the end goes along your last line: it will cost the owner money and perhaps business.

But capitalism does that by itself, you don't need to impose a fine for something that would happen due to the economy anyways. If the vendor refuses to do a job, he loses all profits from that job, and presumably more customers due to his poor performance.

You don't need an additional artificial punishment for that.



This reminds me of that flower shop fiasco.



Kaneman! said:
CrazyGamer2017 said:

Well to be clear I don't think anyone is literally asking to physically force the guy to bake a cake cause yes that would be forced labor. But that's obvious, I'm not sure how one could actually physically force someone to bake a cake LOL.

By forcing I mean law enforcing as in, if he refuses he gets fined which in the end goes along your last line: it will cost the owner money and perhaps business.

But capitalism does that by itself, you don't need to impose a fine for something that would happen due to the economy anyways. If the vendor refuses to do a job, he loses all profits from that job, and presumably more customers due to his poor performance.

You don't need an additional artificial punishment for that.

Well that's where we are going to have to disagree my friend. Capitalism takes care of poor business decisions but what happens here goes beyond a poor business decision, it's an open and voluntary act of discrimination and discrimination should be dealt legally.

It's as if some big company was caught in a corruption scandal and you'd say, let them be, capitalism is going to take care of their offense. Well I'm sure the USA would go after such company in some legal way because corruption goes beyond a poor business decision, it could be considered a poor business decision (or a good one if the corruption endeavor pays off) but it's also an offense as corruption is illegal.

Of course I'm assuming that discrimination is illegal in the US, maybe it is not, I don't know. It certainly is over here in the EU.

And even if we stick with the notion that capitalism will take care of it, it may not always be the case. a lot of bigots and there is a huge lot of them could decide to support the bakery and shop there or refer it to their friends to shop there. Add to that a lot of neutral people that doesn't care either way and thus will still go shop in that bakery. Still add to that the general public that may not have heard about the case and would go to that bakery without knowing the baker is homophobic. And that's not even taking into account the gay couple that decided to press charges, well they could have not pressed charges and then NOBODY would even know about the gay couple's plight. In this latter case, capitalism would take care of nothing and it would be business as usual for the baker.



CrazyGamer2017 said:

Well that's where we are going to have to disagree my friend. Capitalism takes care of poor business decisions but what happens here goes beyond a poor business decision, it's an open and voluntary act of discrimination and discrimination should be dealt legally.

It's as if some big company was caught in a corruption scandal and you'd say, let them be, capitalism is going to take care of their offense. Well I'm sure the USA would go after such company in some legal way because corruption goes beyond a poor business decision, it could be considered a poor business decision (or a good one if the corruption endeavor pays off) but it's also an offense as corruption is illegal.

Of course I'm assuming that discrimination is illegal in the US, maybe it is not, I don't know. It certainly is over here in the EU.

And even if we stick with the notion that capitalism will take care of it, it may not always be the case. a lot of bigots and there is a huge lot of them could decide to support the bakery and shop there or refer it to their friends to shop there. Add to that a lot of neutral people that doesn't care either way and thus will still go shop in that bakery. Still add to that the general public that may not have heard about the case and would go to that bakery without knowing the baker is homophobic. And that's not even taking into account the gay couple that decided to press charges, well they could have not pressed charges and then NOBODY would even know about the gay couple's plight. In this latter case, capitalism would take care of nothing and it would be business as usual for the baker.

Well yes, I know we'll disagree. Corruption is also not a poor business decision, as it doesn't apply to the choice of product a company makes, nor where and whom it sells to.

And in accordance to your last paragraph - isn't that exactly the point of a free market? The bakery acts on supply and demand, and if they do not perform, they become disreputable eventually. Pressing charges is not the only way to attract attention. There is the press, there's social media, there is word of mouth etc.
Yes, it's true that it could become a "node of homophobia" (but seriously, a bakery?), which is a thing you can not prevent. Customers decide where and whom to buy from.

Just a word on your EU comment. My country rejected gay marriage twice in a referendum already. Some people would call that discrimination, but it's legal on a state level - how would you make it work in economy?



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CrazyGamer2017 said:
Kaneman! said:

But capitalism does that by itself, you don't need to impose a fine for something that would happen due to the economy anyways. If the vendor refuses to do a job, he loses all profits from that job, and presumably more customers due to his poor performance.

You don't need an additional artificial punishment for that.

Well that's where we are going to have to disagree my friend. Capitalism takes care of poor business decisions but what happens here goes beyond a poor business decision, it's an open and voluntary act of discrimination and discrimination should be dealt legally.

It's as if some big company was caught in a corruption scandal and you'd say, let them be, capitalism is going to take care of their offense. Well I'm sure the USA would go after such company in some legal way because corruption goes beyond a poor business decision, it could be considered a poor business decision (or a good one if the corruption endeavor pays off) but it's also an offense as corruption is illegal.

Of course I'm assuming that discrimination is illegal in the US, maybe it is not, I don't know. It certainly is over here in the EU.

And even if we stick with the notion that capitalism will take care of it, it may not always be the case. a lot of bigots and there is a huge lot of them could decide to support the bakery and shop there or refer it to their friends to shop there. Add to that a lot of neutral people that doesn't care either way and thus will still go shop in that bakery. Still add to that the general public that may not have heard about the case and would go to that bakery without knowing the baker is homophobic. And that's not even taking into account the gay couple that decided to press charges, well they could have not pressed charges and then NOBODY would even know about the gay couple's plight. In this latter case, capitalism would take care of nothing and it would be business as usual for the baker.

America has freedom of speech and freedom of religion in our constitution, that’s the difference. The courts ruled in favor of the bakers religious and creative liberties and the discrimination was against the treatment of the baker by the state. This was a confined case, it’s not widespread. Their plight? They could have gone anywhere for a cake, they chose this guy and then wanted to force him to make an example of him. They are activists, not victims and the ruling reflected on that. The Supreme Court are not criminal lawyers they are constitutional lawyers, they decide the constitutionality of things. That’s why it might be weird for a European. They might not agree with the baker but that doesn’t matter, it’s his constitutional right. 

Last edited by massimus - on 06 June 2018

o_O.Q said:
CosmicSex said:

 

 

"The law says you have to create that couple the same way you treat all couples."

which law states that?

Basically, I can't see a black couple come in they ask me to book a service and I book it then a white couple comes in and they ask for the same service but I don't like white people so I try to up charge them or tell them I can't.  You have to treat all customers looking for the same service the same.  One race or group doesn't get different service for the same money.  That is what business laws protect against.  I can't offer a 1/2 lb burger for $10 on my menu, attract people to my restaurant, and then when the get there, I only give black people 1/4 burger for $10.  



CosmicSex said:
o_O.Q said:

 

"The law says you have to create that couple the same way you treat all couples."

which law states that?

Basically, I can't see a black couple come in they ask me to book a service and I book it then a white couple comes in and they ask for the same service but I don't like white people so I try to up charge them or tell them I can't.  You have to treat all customers looking for the same service the same.  One race or group doesn't get different service for the same money.  That is what business laws protect against.  I can't offer a 1/2 lb burger for $10 on my menu, attract people to my restaurant, and then when the get there, I only give black people 1/4 burger for $10.  

Did the black couple demand a political/religious expression from you?



I was once barred from going into a club because I wasn't a lesbian.
Yet they let bitch-tits Donald Trump in unquestioned...



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

massimus said:

America has freedom of speech and freedom of religion in our constitution, that’s the difference. The courts ruled in favor of the bakers religious and creative liberties and the discrimination was against the treatment of the baker by the state. This was a confined case, it’s not widespread. Their plight? They could have gone anywhere for a cake, they chose this guy and then wanted to force him to make an example of him. They are activists, not victims and the ruling reflected on that. The Supreme Court are not criminal lawyers they are constitutional lawyers, they decide the constitutionality of things. That’s why it might be weird for a European. They might not agree with the baker but that doesn’t matter, it’s his constitutional right. 

As far as I know we also have freedom of speech and religion but over here religion is more of a private thing, it's your personal business, you cannot impose on others your beliefs like that baker did. The gay couple entered a store selling cakes, they did not enter a church, they were very rightfully expecting to be served as ANY other customer in any bakery.

The baker interfered with something that has NOTHING to do with the job of baking cakes and that is RELIGION and then DISCRIMINATION that is an offense and I guess in Europe we would tend to not let people get away with offenses.

In my opinion the American notion of freedom can have its benefits and it is in and of itself very noble but this is a clear example of freedom abuse. I am free to discriminate you and no one can tell me anything cause I am free. This is plain wrong, period. Ever heard the say: With power comes responsibility? Well I want to add that with freedom also comes responsibility.

My conclusion is that we can never truly agree here because you guys are considering constitutional rights whereas I am considering human rights. Both are important, both are part of our world but in a rare case where they come clashing against each other I choose human rights and you guys choose constitutional rights, end of story. Not sure what can be said beyond that.