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Forums - General - The American family is falling apart

o_O.Q said:
RolStoppable said:

You specifically described your scenario as a dangerous part of town, i.e. incidents like robbery or stabbings have a realistic chance to occur during night time. On the other hand, marriages are made with no visible or known signs that rape is a realistic possibility, especially because marriage is usually a decision that is made after a high level of trust has been built. As such, the two scenarios are not equal at all, hence why your analogy falls flat on its face.

All the analogies you use in your most recent post fall into the same category as "dangerous part of town", so they aren't any good either.

"incidents like robbery or stabbings have a realistic chance to occur during night time. On the other hand, marriages are made with no visible or known signs that rape is a realistic possibility"

but is that true? is it not a widely held belief that we live in a rape culture?

https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/

http://www.kcrg.com/content/news/People-March-Against-Rape-Culture-in-Iowa-City-479060463.html

 

and that rape culture is perpetuated through men

http://theconversation.com/what-rape-culture-says-about-masculinity-85513

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/seeing-sexual-harassment-and-violence-mens-issue/

Perhaps read your own link about what rape culture actually is before trying to use the phrase as a sort of "gotcha".

While I don't agree fully with the idea of rape culture, the idea does not imply that we live in a culture where everyone rapes or where women should be afraid of being raped by every man they see. The idea is that our culture downplays rape, ignores victims and makes jokes about sexual violence. It is more about cultural attitudes towards sexual violence and victims than the likelihood of those things occurring.

Further, the links you are posting support the exact argument that myself and others have been arguing with CrazyGamer about. They speak to how we should keep the onus of responsibility on the perpetrators, how we should move away from blaming the victim and how this attitude of "the rape victim should take responsibility" can be incredibly damaging. They fail as a counterargument to the larger discussion and fail as a counterargument to a specific point and do nothing to actually add anything of value to this discussion as it is clear that you neither support the opinions you are linking, nor fully understand those opinions.



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sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

"incidents like robbery or stabbings have a realistic chance to occur during night time. On the other hand, marriages are made with no visible or known signs that rape is a realistic possibility"

but is that true? is it not a widely held belief that we live in a rape culture?

https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/

http://www.kcrg.com/content/news/People-March-Against-Rape-Culture-in-Iowa-City-479060463.html

 

and that rape culture is perpetuated through men

http://theconversation.com/what-rape-culture-says-about-masculinity-85513

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/seeing-sexual-harassment-and-violence-mens-issue/

Perhaps read your own link about what rape culture actually is before trying to use the phrase as a sort of "gotcha".

While I don't agree fully with the idea of rape culture, the idea does not imply that we live in a culture where everyone rapes or where women should be afraid of being raped by every man they see. The idea is that our culture downplays rape, ignores victims and makes jokes about sexual violence. It is more about cultural attitudes towards sexual violence and victims than the likelihood of those things occurring.

Further, the links you are posting support the exact argument that myself and others have been arguing with CrazyGamer about. They speak to how we should keep the onus of responsibility on the perpetrators, how we should move away from blaming the victim and how this attitude of "the rape victim should take responsibility" can be incredibly damaging. They fail as a counterargument to the larger discussion and fail as a counterargument to a specific point and do nothing to actually add anything of value to this discussion as it is clear that you neither support the opinions you are linking, nor fully understand those opinions.

"before trying to use the phrase as a sort of "gotcha"."

you would do well to not assume what my intentions are when you have no basis for your accusations

 

" the idea does not imply that we live in a culture where everyone rapes or where women should be afraid of being raped by every man they see."

studies have shown that 1 in 3 men would rape a woman if he could

https://thinkprogress.org/1-in-3-college-men-in-survey-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-they-could-get-away-with-it-ffa7406b9778/

that means(if the study is accurate obviously) that every third man you pass on the street is a potential rapist

 

"It is more about cultural attitudes towards sexual violence and victims than the likelihood of those things occurring."

incorrect, you have not been doing your reading on the problem as the link i posted indicates

 

"Further, the links you are posting support the exact argument that myself and others have been arguing with CrazyGamer about."

yes and? how is this relevant to what i posted? are you not just bolstering my post now?

 

" as it is clear that you neither support the opinions you are linking, nor fully understand those opinions."

based on what? where have i said that i think victims should be blamed for their rapes?



o_O.Q said:


studies have shown that 1 in 3 men would rape a woman if he could

https://thinkprogress.org/1-in-3-college-men-in-survey-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-they-could-get-away-with-it-ffa7406b9778/

that means(if the study is accurate obviously) that every third man you pass on the street is a potential rapist

 

"It is more about cultural attitudes towards sexual violence and victims than the likelihood of those things occurring."

incorrect, you have not been doing your reading on the problem as the link i posted indicates

1) Do you believe we live in a "rape culture"?

2) Do you think that study utilizes representative sampling techniques?

3) Would you care to elaborate on how I am incorrect, or do you just want to leave your argument as a mere contradiction (and as we all know, contradiction is not an argument).



sundin13 said:

o_O.Q said:


studies have shown that 1 in 3 men would rape a woman if he could

https://thinkprogress.org/1-in-3-college-men-in-survey-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-they-could-get-away-with-it-ffa7406b9778/

that means(if the study is accurate obviously) that every third man you pass on the street is a potential rapist

 

"It is more about cultural attitudes towards sexual violence and victims than the likelihood of those things occurring."

incorrect, you have not been doing your reading on the problem as the link i posted indicates

1) Do you believe we live in a "rape culture"?

2) Do you think that study utilizes representative sampling techniques?

3) Would you care to elaborate on how I am incorrect, or do you just want to leave your argument as a mere contradiction (and as we all know, contradiction is not an argument).

the study is corroborated with other statistics

http://www.arlingtonwestsantamonica.org/MST.html

 

"Would you care to elaborate on how I am incorrect"

because you stated that "rape culture" is not about how often rapes occur and that's wrong

yes its about attitudes that lead to rape but its also about how often the act occurs

 

"Do you believe we live in a "rape culture"?"

you already presumed what my stance is on this by stating that i "neither support the opinions you are linking, nor fully understand those opinions." with no evidence that this is the case

so it seems you are already prepared to call me a liar, so why bother asking now?



o_O.Q said:

the study is corroborated with other statistics

http://www.arlingtonwestsantamonica.org/MST.html

 

"Would you care to elaborate on how I am incorrect"

because you stated that "rape culture" is not about how often rapes occur and that's wrong

yes its about attitudes that lead to rape but its also about how often the act occurs

 

"Do you believe we live in a "rape culture"?"

you already presumed what my stance is on this by stating that i "neither support the opinions you are linking, nor fully understand those opinions." with no evidence that this is the case

so it seems you are already prepared to call me a liar, so why bother asking now?

1) Stop dodging the question and answer it. If my assumptions were wrong, tell me that they were wrong. Don't play coy. Do you believe we live in a rape culture?

2) And do you think that those other statistics are a representative sample?

3) To quote your own links:

"To understand rape culture better, first we need to understand that it’s not necessarily a society or group of people that outwardly promotes rape (although it could be).

When we talk about rape culture, we’re discussing something more implicit than that. We’re talking about cultural practices (that, yes, we commonly engage in together as a society) that excuse or otherwise tolerate sexual violence.

We’re talking about the way that we collectively think about rape.

More often than not, it’s situations in which sexual assault, rape, and general violence are ignored, trivialized, normalized, or made into jokes."

Nothing in that definition states anything which contradicts Rol's point. The understood possibility that every male has a reasonable likelihood of raping you is not fundamental to the definition of rape culture, and as such the idea does not hold any argumentative power in this context. To bring it up shows a fundamental misunderstanding and misapplication of the concept.
 



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sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

the study is corroborated with other statistics

http://www.arlingtonwestsantamonica.org/MST.html

 

"Would you care to elaborate on how I am incorrect"

because you stated that "rape culture" is not about how often rapes occur and that's wrong

yes its about attitudes that lead to rape but its also about how often the act occurs

 

"Do you believe we live in a "rape culture"?"

you already presumed what my stance is on this by stating that i "neither support the opinions you are linking, nor fully understand those opinions." with no evidence that this is the case

so it seems you are already prepared to call me a liar, so why bother asking now?

1) Stop dodging the question and answer it. If my assumptions were wrong, tell me that they were wrong. Don't play coy. Do you believe we live in a rape culture?

2) And do you think that those other statistics are a representative sample?

3) To quote your own links:

"To understand rape culture better, first we need to understand that it’s not necessarily a society or group of people that outwardly promotes rape (although it could be).

When we talk about rape culture, we’re discussing something more implicit than that. We’re talking about cultural practices (that, yes, we commonly engage in together as a society) that excuse or otherwise tolerate sexual violence.

We’re talking about the way that we collectively think about rape.

More often than not, it’s situations in which sexual assault, rape, and general violence are ignored, trivialized, normalized, or made into jokes."

Nothing in that definition states anything which contradicts Rol's point. The understood possibility that every male has a reasonable likelihood of raping you is not fundamental to the definition of rape culture, and as such the idea does not hold any argumentative power in this context. To bring it up shows a fundamental misunderstanding and misapplication of the concept.
 

" And do you think that those other statistics are a representative sample?"

representative of what? the population?

 

"To understand rape culture better, first we need to understand that it’s not necessarily a society or group of people that outwardly promotes rape (although it could be)."

to quote my own links

"The argument we make is that while women who have been raped endure the lasting effects of psychological and emotional harm, the problem of rape is not a “woman’s problem.” It is squarely a man’s problem. In the wake of recent horror stories about men in power who abuse women — like Harvey Weinstein — we offer some of our findings on rape culture and some suggestions for men to make change."

 

well shit look at that, a contradiction, now i suppose one could ask how would we decide which holds more weight?

well to me the obvious solution would be to look for trends and see which stance is more common... and overwhelmingly the problem is identified as men... i mean i could post a whole bunch of links demonstrating this but i think you already know this is the case

 

"Nothing in that definition states anything which contradicts Rol's point. The understood possibility that every male has a reasonable likelihood of raping you is not fundamental to the definition of rape culture"

first off that was not an official definition... that was one woman giving a response to people criticising the term "rape culture"

secondly you cherry picked one small part of what i posted when there are numerous other quotes that contradict your assertion... 

and jesus christ man in the exact same article you are quoting from they state these

"he ubiquity of street harassment – and how victims are told that they’re “overreacting” when they call it out."

"1-in-5 women and 1-in-71 men having reported experiencing rape"

are examples of rape culture

 

edit: i'm a little confused though, why are you trying so hard to absolve men for causing this problem?

Last edited by o_O.Q - on 08 April 2018

o_O.Q said:

" And do you think that those other statistics are a representative sample?"

representative of what? the population?

 

"To understand rape culture better, first we need to understand that it’s not necessarily a society or group of people that outwardly promotes rape (although it could be)."

to quote my own links

"The argument we make is that while women who have been raped endure the lasting effects of psychological and emotional harm, the problem of rape is not a “woman’s problem.” It is squarely a man’s problem. In the wake of recent horror stories about men in power who abuse women — like Harvey Weinstein — we offer some of our findings on rape culture and some suggestions for men to make change."

 

well shit look at that, a contradiction, now i suppose one could ask how would we decide which holds more weight?

well to me the obvious solution would be to look for trends and see which stance is more common... and overwhelmingly the problem is identified as men... i mean i could post a whole bunch of links demonstrating this but i think you already know this is the case

 

"Nothing in that definition states anything which contradicts Rol's point. The understood possibility that every male has a reasonable likelihood of raping you is not fundamental to the definition of rape culture"

first off that was not an official definition... that was one woman giving a response to people criticising the term "rape culture"

secondly you cherry picked one small part of what i posted when there are numerous other quotes that contradict your assertion... 

and jesus christ man in the exact same article you are quoting from they state these

"he ubiquity of street harassment – and how victims are told that they’re “overreacting” when they call it out."

"1-in-5 women and 1-in-71 men having reported experiencing rape"

are examples of rape culture

Before this conversation continues, I will again ask you to answer the question I have asked twice now. Do you think we live in a rape culture?

You cannot weasel your way out of answering this fundamental question by just pretending it isn't there.

EDIT: And wow, that edit is probably one of the most intellectually dishonest things I have ever seen.




Maybe it's just marriage that got unpopular.


A baby can be born to an unmarried woman and still live with both its father and mother as a traditional family unit.

women no longer fear leaving physically abusive and drunk men. It is actually a good thing they are strong and can raise their children without depending on a man that can do whatever the hell they want like back in the day.



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

" And do you think that those other statistics are a representative sample?"

representative of what? the population?

 

"To understand rape culture better, first we need to understand that it’s not necessarily a society or group of people that outwardly promotes rape (although it could be)."

to quote my own links

"The argument we make is that while women who have been raped endure the lasting effects of psychological and emotional harm, the problem of rape is not a “woman’s problem.” It is squarely a man’s problem. In the wake of recent horror stories about men in power who abuse women — like Harvey Weinstein — we offer some of our findings on rape culture and some suggestions for men to make change."

 

well shit look at that, a contradiction, now i suppose one could ask how would we decide which holds more weight?

well to me the obvious solution would be to look for trends and see which stance is more common... and overwhelmingly the problem is identified as men... i mean i could post a whole bunch of links demonstrating this but i think you already know this is the case

 

"Nothing in that definition states anything which contradicts Rol's point. The understood possibility that every male has a reasonable likelihood of raping you is not fundamental to the definition of rape culture"

first off that was not an official definition... that was one woman giving a response to people criticising the term "rape culture"

secondly you cherry picked one small part of what i posted when there are numerous other quotes that contradict your assertion... 

and jesus christ man in the exact same article you are quoting from they state these

"he ubiquity of street harassment – and how victims are told that they’re “overreacting” when they call it out."

"1-in-5 women and 1-in-71 men having reported experiencing rape"

are examples of rape culture

Before this conversation continues, I will again ask you to answer the question I have asked twice now. Do you think we live in a rape culture?

You cannot weasel your way out of answering this fundamental question by just pretending it isn't there.

EDIT: And wow, that edit is probably one of the most intellectually dishonest things I have ever seen.

the question is not fundamental to this discussion in anyway

you are asking it to justify your implying that i'm a liar before, which was in turn done to hand wave my argument away

 

isn't it funny how in this post you have now decided to completely ignore my argument entirely? isn't that telling?