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fkusumot said:
ssj12 said:
CaptainPrefrences said:
ssj2

the enforced slavery which means they were racist lol!

you hav to remember history judged slavery as correct in many civilizations. No matter if you look at the history of every country and civilization there was slavery so naturally slavery was seen as correct. It's a matter of what families you look at who were racist. The ones who treated the Africans as slaves but knew and understood they were human, there where tons of families that did, where not racist. Only the ones who kepts them is insanely poor living conditions like basically the equivilent of no shelter, little food, etc. were racist.


Oh really. Do you have any documented examples of this? Tons? What percentage of slave owners are you talking about? One percent, two percent? Can you provide some links? I'm not disputing that this probably happened, but the percentages would certainly be interesting. Is this some kind of "Schindler's List" plantation you're talking about?

I know you live in the South but I'm wondering what kind of stories you have heard. I do know a little about the South and have spent about seven years of my life living there. I have deep roots in the South. The maternal side of my family has a wealth of documented history about their ancestors. Personally I'm eligibile to join the organization called "Sons of the Confederacy".


The Sons of Confederate Veterans is the official organization. I'd join but I don't feel like doing all the paperwork necessary to prove my ancestry.

My great-great-grandfather surrendered at Vicksburg.



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El Duderino said:
makingmusic476 said:
El Duderino said:
makingmusic476 said:
El Duderino said:
makingmusic476 said:
El Duderino said:
Strategyking92 said:
Darc Requiem said:




when most states joined the union they had no idea that they couldn´t ever get out of it anymore...


Actually, they legally should've been able to get it out of it.

I know... thats one major reason why they were so pissed of... and I do feel sympathy for those who wanted to be independent but I have to go with Lincoln on that one "A house divided against itself cannot stand." With the nation growing so fast at that point a war would have become inevitable and it was a good thing he decided to fight before things got even more complicated... though it is sad so many people had to lose their lives fighting for freedom on both sides...

 

He could've just said Goodbye when we tried to leave instead of forcing a war that resulted in over 620,000 deaths.

 


That just wouldn´t have worked... had he sayed goodbye then new states founded in the west could have also become slave states... Lincoln offered the south that they could keep slavery (at least for a while) but no new states where alowed to have it... the south didn´t want that though... it was a fight over principles, eather all men are created equal or not... if that principle is not worht fighting for I don´t know what is...



The war was a matter of economics (particularly tariffs) and states rights (the right to secede from the federal government, and the right to nullify any law a state deemed unconstitutional, much like the issues surrounding the tariff controversies of 1832).

Slavery was well on it's way out by the 18th century. Virginia had been holding abolitionist talks in the State congress as early as 1853, and the US was one of the last major regions that still allowed slavery (England, France, and Spain had banned slavery years before hand). To say that slavery would have survived in the CSA for very long is untrue.


While I do agree that slavery was not the only issue that lead to the civil war I think its impossible to say Slavery was not a main factor... sure there were many other factors but slavery was a very big one... many european countrys had fromaly abandomed slavery but fact is that people could still be held in slave like conditions by their landlords... to say because there were abolitionist talks in the south proves slavery was going to be forbidden is nothing but speculation... there were also anti-abolitionist in ther North btw... Lincoln wanted america slave free once and for all, he achieved that and we should all be gratefull for that... ( I know it took another hundred years for blacks to have equal rights but the Civil War was a major step in the right direction...)

 


In my opinion, the Civil War was NOT a step in the right direction. From a civil liberties/states rights/Jeffersonian standpoint, Lincoln by means of the war did more to advance the power of the federal government, particularly the presidency, than anything aside from FDR's "New Deal".

And while the War did end slavery, I think it only increased racial tension. Imagine the wounded pride Southerners must have felt after the war, especially under the horrible reconstruction imposed by the Radical Republicans. The newly freed black men would've been looked upon as a sign of their defeat, and the Confederates would've taken out their anger on these people. It is why the KKK, aka the Ghosts of the Confederacy, went bad, imo. When you lose at a game, it's not so bad, but when the guy that beat you starts rubbing it in, it starts to piss you off, doesn't it? The freedom of blacks across the South was a physical manifestation of this.

Slavery was slowly dying in the US prior to the war just like it had already died in many other regions. The economic tensions of the 1850s may have spurred the South to push for an expansion of slavery in an effort to increase their political power versus the North, but a freed Confederacy with nothing to fear from from Northern politicians would've had little reason to press the expansion of slavery, and the practice would've eventually ceased much like it had in most other places in the world. And it would've happened peacefully, just like it happened everywhere else.

In the end, everyone would've been better off if Lincoln had just let us go.



I think that nowadays that all races are supposedly equal saying black power is just as racist as saying white power. But i think that overall people are to sensitive about racism, its stupid that one slip of the tounge can cause fights, even wars.



I wrote a long intelligent speach but VGchartz has decided not to show it for some reason. Basically I explained the difference between the original clan and the re-formed one.

The original of the 1800's was more of a social club for white people called Krykos (spelt Krykkos which is where they got the KKK from) which is greek for circle clan. The re-formed one was largely unaffiliated with the original and was just a racial discrimination groups.

P.S. my original was much longer.



makingmusic476 said:
fkusumot said:
 

The maternal side of my family has a wealth of documented history about their ancestors. Personally I'm eligibile to join the organization called "Sons of the Confederacy".


The Sons of Confederate Veterans is the official organization. I'd join but I don't feel like doing all the paperwork necessary to prove my ancestry.

My great-great-grandfather surrendered at Vicksburg.


There's another organization "Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy".

Here's what was said in my g-g-grandfathers obituary:

Some people would be quite proud of that. Me, I'm slightly embarrassed. It's two more generation removed from ElDuderino's example, his grandmother, but we've all got ancestors who did something. Another one of my g-g-grandfathers is rather infamous too. His name was "Lewis Cass Payseur". Google it, he's there and he's rather infamous.



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fkusumot said:
ssj12 said:
CaptainPrefrences said:
ssj2

the enforced slavery which means they were racist lol!

you hav to remember history judged slavery as correct in many civilizations. No matter if you look at the history of every country and civilization there was slavery so naturally slavery was seen as correct. It's a matter of what families you look at who were racist. The ones who treated the Africans as slaves but knew and understood they were human, there where tons of families that did, where not racist. Only the ones who kepts them is insanely poor living conditions like basically the equivilent of no shelter, little food, etc. were racist.


 Oh really. Do you have any documented examples of this? Tons? What percentage of slave owners are you talking about? One percent, two percent? Can you provide some links? I'm not disputing that this probably happened, but the percentages would certainly be interesting. Is this some kind of "Schindler's List" plantation you're talking about?

 I know you live in the South but I'm wondering what kind of stories you have heard. I do know a little about the South and have spent about seven years of my life living there. I have deep roots in the South. The maternal side of my family has a wealth of documented history about their ancestors. Personally I'm eligibile to join the organization called "Sons of the Confederacy". 


 I looked this crap up ages ago. its like 8% of all plantations or something around there.

 And so what if you live in the South... my parents are from New York lol



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I think racism has always been here, and will always be on people's minds. Unfortunately people wanna search for differences whether it is race, color, religion and etc, to create wars from them. And even when when fights happen we always tend to side with those who are supposedly "my people", right? And they act from their instincts rather from their minds.



ssj12 said:
fkusumot said:
ssj12 said:
 

 It's a matter of what families you look at who were racist. The ones who treated the Africans as slaves but knew and understood they were human, there where tons of families that did, where not racist.


Oh really. Do you have any documented examples of this? Tons? What percentage of slave owners are you talking about?


I looked this crap up ages ago. its like 8% of all plantations or something around there.


Tons is now ~8%. Can I quote you on that? Either you just remembered it wrong, used the word as a caricature of hyperbole, or you have a definition of "tons" that will usually make it look like you have a different definition of the word.

You know the word "tons" used in the context you used it in is the wrong word to use.



makingmusic476 said:
El Duderino said:
makingmusic476 said:
El Duderino said:
makingmusic476 said:
El Duderino said:
makingmusic476 said:
El Duderino said:
Strategyking92 said:
Darc Requiem said:






 



 


 





 

 


In my opinion, the Civil War was NOT a step in the right direction. From a civil liberties/states rights/Jeffersonian standpoint, Lincoln by means of the war did more to advance the power of the federal government, particularly the presidency, than anything aside from FDR's "New Deal".

And while the War did end slavery, I think it only increased racial tension. Imagine the wounded pride Southerners must have felt after the war, especially under the horrible reconstruction imposed by the Radical Republicans. The newly freed black men would've been looked upon as a sign of their defeat, and the Confederates would've taken out their anger on these people. It is why the KKK, aka the Ghosts of the Confederacy, went bad, imo. When you lose at a game, it's not so bad, but when the guy that beat you starts rubbing it in, it starts to piss you off, doesn't it? The freedom of blacks across the South was a physical manifestation of this.

Slavery was slowly dying in the US prior to the war just like it had already died in many other regions. The economic tensions of the 1850s may have spurred the South to push for an expansion of slavery in an effort to increase their political power versus the North, but a freed Confederacy with nothing to fear from from Northern politicians would've had little reason to press the expansion of slavery, and the practice would've eventually ceased much like it had in most other places in the world. And it would've happened peacefully, just like it happened everywhere else.

In the end, everyone would've been better off if Lincoln had just let us go.


If you believe the federal government should have less power over states then that is your opinion and I´m ok with it, personlay I think on major issues such as slavery it is of great importance that all people have the same right in every state... but thats only my opinion.

You can´t be serious about the second part though... you think freeing the slaves was a bad thing ??? It increased racial tension ??? Of course slave owners weren´t happy about it... but what the hell do you think how the slaves fealt about it ??? So the free black people were a physical manifestation of the south losing the war... but the south did physically lose the war... and its a good thing... how can you say black people being slaves was ok... should they have stayed slaves just so the south fealt better about the war ??? Sorry but you make very lttle sence in that part...

I am also not happy with your third part there... the expansion of slavery was one of the main critical points that lead to the civil war... no way the south would have been slave free in new states... slavery in europe was a different thing all together since it had nothing to do with race and was based on the feudal system ... and in lots of places it ended everything but peacefully... russion revolution anyone ??? 

So in the end I´m happy Lincold did what he did when he did.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

Martin Luther King Jr. 

 



 

 

 

fkusumot said:
makingmusic476 said:
fkusumot said:
 

The maternal side of my family has a wealth of documented history about their ancestors. Personally I'm eligibile to join the organization called "Sons of the Confederacy".


The Sons of Confederate Veterans is the official organization. I'd join but I don't feel like doing all the paperwork necessary to prove my ancestry.

My great-great-grandfather surrendered at Vicksburg.


There's another organization "Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy".

Here's what was said in my g-g-grandfathers obituary:

Some people would be quite proud of that. Me, I'm slightly embarrassed. It's two more generation removed from ElDuderino's example, his grandmother, but we've all got ancestors who did something.


My grandmother did nothing wrong... she was never racist against anybody, how is it racist when a german hates on a jew for no reason but its not racist when a jew hates on a german for no reason ??? You think I am confuzing racism with prejudice and bigotry but I say racism is a form of prejudice and bigotry. If you are embarrassed for what your g-g-grandfather did fine... I dont get how you could... I don´t reflect anything my ancestors did on myself... some of them where royal and lived in castels others were poor farmes who were treated as bas as slaves... what does that say about me ??? Nothing, thats what.

Thats why I stand by my point, you have to learn from the past not carry it on your shoulders like you are responsible for what happend or other poeple are responsible for what their ancestors did in the past. If you don´t get over the past you will never be able to have a fresh start... look at the middle-east... they are fighting a war that started centuries age... even muslims hate each other over stuff that happed hundreds of years ago... If people could let go of that the world would be a better place.