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Forums - Politics - What is "socialism"? - An attempt to clear up myths/misconceptions

Aeolus451 said:
Leadified said:

When he is talking about inequality by age bracket.

His explanation makes perfect sense on that. Older people are gonna have more because they had more time invested in earning their money compared to a just a kid just out of college with alot of debt. 

That's not wrong but Peterson uses that as a main talking point for inequality as a whole, whereas the elephant in the room for inequality is the increasing gap between the rich and the poor.

Also I think Peterson's flaw with why young people are resentful is that he does not consider material conditions. This is anecdotal but where I live, rent and cost of living is very high so if you're young then a lot of your income simply goes to keeping you alive which makes you vulnerable to sudden economic shock. Why people get into these conditions may vary, some people put themselves into this situation because they were encouraged by their parents to live independent lives, while others may have to live in these conditions because they had to move for work.



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Leadified said:
Aeolus451 said:

His explanation makes perfect sense on that. Older people are gonna have more because they had more time invested in earning their money compared to a just a kid just out of college with alot of debt. 

That's not wrong but Peterson uses that as a main talking point for inequality as a whole, whereas the elephant in the room for inequality is the increasing gap between the rich and the poor.

Also I think Peterson's flaw with why young people are resentful is that he does not consider material conditions. This is anecdotal but where I live, rent and cost of living is very high so if you're young then a lot of your income simply goes to keeping you alive which makes you vulnerable to sudden economic shock. Why people get into these conditions may vary, some people put themselves into this situation because they were encouraged by their parents to live independent lives, while others may have to live in these conditions because they had to move for work.

Well, of course the gap between the rich and the poor is gonna keep expanding. The rich can just use their money to make more of it and there's no limit to it. The poor has to get better educated and make smart decisions to bring in more money. Most people start off poor though going to college and recently graduating. He's talking about the poor and middle class with age being the primary explanation in their differences in wealth. To become rich, you would have to work in certain career fields or run your own business. What he said still applies to those. 



sc94597 said:
Leadified said:

If you don't mind me asking, what caused you to switch from being an anarcho-capitalist to your current ideology?

It was a process. I took a class on political philosophy that slowly broke down my prejudices of other ideologies: feminism, socialism, progressive liberalism, etc and also allowed me to better critique my own ideas. Around the same time the "anarcho-capitalist" movement was being influenced (and influenced) the alt-right significantly, mostly through the ideas of Hans-Herman Hoppe. You'd see a lot of racist and nationalist bullshit thrown around. More and more you'd also find anarcho-capitalists whom rejected enlightenment ideals, not because they thought they were insufficient, but because they thought the enlightenment put us in the wrong direction and feudalism/absolutism would be preferable in so much as the feudal lords/kings didn't interfere with the peasants lives.This was obviously bullcrap. Overall there was a shift rightward in the ancap community, and while I didn't reject the ancap label, I thought many people whom labeled themselves ancaps were acting and believing things contrary to libertarian principles.  

I was also very interested in what the economies of near anarchic societies were like at the time, reading about colonial Pennsylvania, medieval Iceland, the American frontier, etc, and they definitely weren't capitalist. At the same time I read a lot of stuff by Lysander Spooner, Roderick Long and other anti-capitalist lockeans as well as mutualists like Kevin Carson. Through Long's and Carson's work I read the work of other's at the think-tank C4SS (Center for a Stateless Society.) Particularly I read Markets Not Capitalism: Individualist Anarchism Against Bosses, Inequality, Corporate Power, and Structural Poverty

There was a lot of stuff about the 19th century individualist anarchists like Benjamin Tucker, Voltairine de Cleyre, Josiah Warren, William Greene Batchelder, and many others who were radical individualist and radical anti-capitalists that stuck with me. Much more than anything an anarcho-capitalist wrote. Mostly because the individualist anarchist's theory and praxis was grounded in the world that we have today and wasn't so axiomatic based on debatable premises. 

I then read some stuff from Ricardian Socialists like Thomas Hodgskin and John Gray who saw (classical) liberalism and socialism as two-sides of the same coin, unlike Marxists. 

I finally ended my transition by rejecting objective morality and absolute property through reading Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and Max Stirner. Both of these are probably my biggest influences currently, besides Benjamin Tucker. 

Additionally I read stuff from Peter Kropotkin and Mikhail Bakunin to realize that anarcho-collectivists and anarcho-communists want most of the same things as individualists, and in many ways communism or collectivism can complement individualism in so much as neither is taken to an extreme. For example, when somebody is young an energetic asserting one's individuality is important. When somebody is old and content they might want the benefits of community. As long as everyone's free to choose. 

This was all within the last two years. 

Thank you that was very informative. Many socialists I know used to be former social democrats that decided to take a more radical stance, but I always find it interesting when people from the right turn towards socialism since it's such a radical change. I even know a few former alt-righters that made the jump.

There is a misconception out there that the radical left or socialists are just a hivemind of people who hate capitalism, but that couldn't be further from the truth. There is a great wealth of diversity in ideas and theory and no one has to swallow a Marxist dogma, unless if they want to of course. Even if you like Marx, chances are you're going to end up in endless arguments with other Marxists who challenge your dialectics.

Pyro as Bill said:
Leadified said:

They're not, so what now? What I find interesting about liberal ideology is they talk all about working hard but never want to fairly compensate workers for their work, why is this?

That's what happens when you come off the gold standard and put 'coin clippers' in charge. Sir Isaac Newton used to torture counterfeiters to death when he was Master of the Mint. If the current laws were to change, I wouldn't oppose the same thing happening to the boys and girls at the Bank of England and their enablers in Parliament.

How are internet speed ($/kb) and computer speed prices today compared to the 80s? How much richer would 'the workers' be if all of their costs dropped by a factor of a thousand/million/billion?

The problem is the lack of gold standard directly benefits governments and the very rich and going back to it right now would probably trigger an economic collapse. So I think that issue is dead and buried by now.

Wages would be flat but wealth would be higher, this also probably means you would have less inequality like in the 1970s. Conditions today is why the welfare state continues to expand which attempts to solve this problem.

Last edited by Leadified - on 01 February 2018

name one successful socialist country.



Leadified said:
Pyro as Bill said:

There's nothing wrong with wages stagnating or falling as long as prices fall quicker. It's called getting richer.

They're not, so what now? What I find interesting about liberal ideology is they talk all about working hard but never want to fairly compensate workers for their work, why is this?

Most competent companies and leaders want and do compensate their workers fairly, and of course there are several studies showing the impact of wage over productivity and that it basically points out that underpaying take out productivity but overpaying have no sensitive positive impact on it. So companies pay the right amount to get the right motivation.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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NATO said:
name one successful socialist country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA5PFcAYxss



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

John2290 said:
I like how Ben Shapiro put it,summing up my thoughts, so elegantly. "Socialism is rape and capitalism is consensual sex". Perfection.

And here I thought that progressivist where against it.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
Leadified said:

They're not, so what now? What I find interesting about liberal ideology is they talk all about working hard but never want to fairly compensate workers for their work, why is this?

Most competent companies and leaders want and do compensate their workers fairly, and of course there are several studies showing the impact of wage over productivity and that it basically points out that underpaying take out productivity but overpaying have no sensitive positive impact on it. So companies pay the right amount to get the right motivation.

Except they don't, companies more often will pay you the minimum in order not to cut into profits. Case in point, take a look at the textile industry in countries like Bangladesh. Companies make record profits while their workers are basically slaves.



Leadified said:
DonFerrari said:

Most competent companies and leaders want and do compensate their workers fairly, and of course there are several studies showing the impact of wage over productivity and that it basically points out that underpaying take out productivity but overpaying have no sensitive positive impact on it. So companies pay the right amount to get the right motivation.

Except they don't, companies more often will pay you the minimum in order not to cut into profits. Case in point, take a look at the textile industry in countries like Bangladesh. Companies make record profits while their workers are basically slaves.

Work that can be easily substituted and that the government impose a minimum wage will move to places where they can do it, because in case you haven't forget customers also keep requesting smaller prices.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
NATO said:
name one successful socialist country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA5PFcAYxss

Yeah, there's no point debating you seriously when you're just going to resort to memes.