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Forums - Movies & TV - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

mZuzek said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Well that's bullshit. It higly depends on the movie, most of my favourite movies have great scripts sure, but there are great movies with just "ok" scripts. Star Wars has never been exactly Citizen Kane when it comes to scripts yet the original trilogy is widely considered a masterpiece. Cinema and literature are not the same, to say the most important thing of a movie is the script  is almost like saying the most important thing of music is the lyrics, it highly depends on the kind of movie or music we are talking about but in general I won't consider that a true statement at all.

Actually, no. That makes absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever.

When you're writing music, you're writing notes and pauses and all that stuff. When you're writing a movie, you're writing a script. It's as simple as that - to say the script is the most important thing in a movie (spoiler: it is) is like saying the composition is the most important thing in a song (spoiler: it also is).

Lyrics don't fit anywhere in this comparison, as they're something that has no real impact on the music itself (in fact music doesn't always need lyrics), only on whatever extra meaning a writer is trying to convey on top of the music, which has no meaning other than the itself.

Of course depending on what the movie is trying to do, maybe the script will be more or less emphasized - but even in a movie where the script isn't as "important", it's still important that it'll be written in a way that enhances the movie instead of detracting from it. For example, Alien is a movie that doesn't put too much focus on the script, yet the script itself is amazing because it takes advantage of what the movie is trying to be.

Not at all, the equivalent of writting notes in music is drawing a storyboard in cinema. Cinema is an art that relies on images in movement way more than in words, again, literature and cinema are not the same.


Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 30 December 2017

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JakDaSnack said:
Azuren said:

I countered you every time, and everytime you did shit like flat out deny things that happened in the movies happened. So no, you didn't address anything. Luke being a good pilot has been canon since episode 4, but you just deny deny deny.

 

As far as the last Jedi is concerned, tell me: is she suddenly unable to get a grip on matter level force techniques? Is there a 3-6 year time skip to explain added skills? Is she still Chewy's new bff? Does literally everything still hinge on her, regardless of the efforts of anyone else?

Sure ya did bud. You wer using hyperbole, taking one line of dialogue and blowing it up.  I pointed this out and your response was “nuh uh, your wrong cus reasons”.  That’s not a counter lol. Anyways.....you’re obviously gonna disagree, so let’s move on.

Doesnt matter, it was established in TFA, however it was explained in TLJ. She didn’t add any skills in TLJ. They never showed a tight bond between the two.  Nope, it hinged on Finn, who failed, then Leia who failed, then Luke who succeeded.  

One line of dialogue? Luke's favorite thing to play with was his model of his T-16. He mentioned having looked over the X-Wing to other rebels, claiming it was similar enough to what he was used to to get a good feel of it. And holy shit: he had a feel of it. Would you fucking look at that? Honestly, your denial of outright facts from the Original Trilogy (note: NOT THE EU) is your single largest failing point in your argument. It's like suddenly deciding that Obi-wan was just saying shit when he said Anakin was a great Jedi, or that not that many people died to get the Death Star plans. Why? "Because they were just bragging", right?

 

And oh, so she didn't continue to be a force savant? Not lifting piles of boulders or using lightsabers with zero proper training? "But Snoke"- fucking died in the most upsettingly convenient way, didn't he? Almost like he was there to be a show of force before they got rid of him?

 

Seriously, what are you on? How can you show someone a Mary Sue and they just insist that's normal and preferred?



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mZuzek said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Not at all, the equivalent of writting notes in music is drawing a storyboard in cinema. Cinema is an art that relies on images in movement way more than in words, again, literature and cinema are not the same.

I don't know how the process is for all movies, but as far as I know usually the script is the first thing that's made, it's the foundation for any movie. Lyrics are not the foundation for music at all.

Either way your constant analogies between film and music are inevitably going to lead nowhere because they're two very different forms of art.

To do this in music:


Is like to do this in cinema: 



In both cases is usually the most important part, but as always it depends, for many songwritters the lyrics comes first and for some directors the writting is the most important part, but overall nor the lyrics nor the script are the most important part of music or cinema.



Goodnightmoon said:
Azuren said:

1. Luke was never a chosen one.

2. Rey is a complete and utter Mary Sue, and the only real defense against it is head-in-the-sand denial.

Didn't said he was but his whole character follows the stereotype of the hero/chosen one that's just cute, nice and good.

Even if she was a mary sue I don't find her offensive at all, in fact i find her quite likable and very well performed by Daisy Ridley, she is less complex than I would like her to be but then again, so was Luke at first.

Really? Because he seemed more like a brat who got involved in stuff too big for his britches.

 

So you admit that you know she's a Mary Sue on some level, but you still like her? 



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Azuren said:
JakDaSnack said:

Sure ya did bud. You wer using hyperbole, taking one line of dialogue and blowing it up.  I pointed this out and your response was “nuh uh, your wrong cus reasons”.  That’s not a counter lol. Anyways.....you’re obviously gonna disagree, so let’s move on.

Doesnt matter, it was established in TFA, however it was explained in TLJ. She didn’t add any skills in TLJ. They never showed a tight bond between the two.  Nope, it hinged on Finn, who failed, then Leia who failed, then Luke who succeeded.  

One line of dialogue? Luke's favorite thing to play with was his model of his T-16. He mentioned having looked over the X-Wing to other rebels, claiming it was similar enough to what he was used to to get a good feel of it. And holy shit: he had a feel of it. Would you fucking look at that? Honestly, your denial of outright facts from the Original Trilogy (note: NOT THE EU) is your single largest failing point in your argument. It's like suddenly deciding that Obi-wan was just saying shit when he said Anakin was a great Jedi, or that not that many people died to get the Death Star plans. Why? "Because they were just bragging", right?

 

And oh, so she didn't continue to be a force savant? Not lifting piles of boulders or using lightsabers with zero proper training? "But Snoke"- fucking died in the most upsettingly convenient way, didn't he? Almost like he was there to be a show of force before they got rid of him?

 

Seriously, what are you on? How can you show someone a Mary Sue and they just insist that's normal and preferred?

Lol, I never denied anything.  Are you ok? Lol.  But like I said, I never said Luke was a Mary Sue, and this topic has become a he said she said, so I’m dropping it since it’s noy relevant.

No more than TFA, again, given the rules established in TFA, TLJ did not add anything, however did explain.  You continue to not have a counter to this.  She spent the entire movie practicing her skills and learning new things from Luke, lifting the boulders was the culmination of that.  And wtf Snoke, explain the relevance to Rey being Mary Sue. 

Lol, I like how you had no counter to 2 of my points, and now I’m on something? Lol, sorry bud, but you aren’t doing a good job with this argument.  



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Azuren said:
Goodnightmoon said:

Didn't said he was but his whole character follows the stereotype of the hero/chosen one that's just cute, nice and good.

Even if she was a mary sue I don't find her offensive at all, in fact i find her quite likable and very well performed by Daisy Ridley, she is less complex than I would like her to be but then again, so was Luke at first.

Really? Because he seemed more like a brat who got involved in stuff too big for his britches.

 

So you admit that you know she's a Mary Sue on some level, but you still like her? 

I don't really see her like that at all but if you do see her that way fine, I just don't know why a Mary Sue is suposed to be automatically hated, isn't Lisa Simpson a Mary Sue? Why do I never read the term Marty Stu anywhere? Is like man only feel ofended when is women the ones idealized and capable.

Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 30 December 2017

JakDaSnack said:
Azuren said:

One line of dialogue? Luke's favorite thing to play with was his model of his T-16. He mentioned having looked over the X-Wing to other rebels, claiming it was similar enough to what he was used to to get a good feel of it. And holy shit: he had a feel of it. Would you fucking look at that? Honestly, your denial of outright facts from the Original Trilogy (note: NOT THE EU) is your single largest failing point in your argument. It's like suddenly deciding that Obi-wan was just saying shit when he said Anakin was a great Jedi, or that not that many people died to get the Death Star plans. Why? "Because they were just bragging", right?

 

And oh, so she didn't continue to be a force savant? Not lifting piles of boulders or using lightsabers with zero proper training? "But Snoke"- fucking died in the most upsettingly convenient way, didn't he? Almost like he was there to be a show of force before they got rid of him?

 

Seriously, what are you on? How can you show someone a Mary Sue and they just insist that's normal and preferred?

Lol, I never denied anything.  Are you ok? Lol.  But like I said, I never said Luke was a Mary Sue, and this topic has become a he said she said, so I’m dropping it since it’s noy relevant.

No more than TFA, again, given the rules established in TFA, TLJ did not add anything, however did explain.  You continue to not have a counter to this.  She spent the entire movie practicing her skills and learning new things from Luke, lifting the boulders was the culmination of that.  And wtf Snoke, explain the relevance to Rey being Mary Sue. 

Lol, I like how you had no counter to 2 of my points, and now I’m on something? Lol, sorry bud, but you aren’t doing a good job with this argument.  

No, don't play stupid and start backpedaling, Mr "He was just bragging". Either own your stupid arguments or admit they were stupid, don't pretend you didn't make them.

 

So your leading argument is "She's not anymore of a Sue than she was, so what's the big deal"?

 

Rey’s force powers were explained by snoke and Luke.

How? She's special? You do understand what a Mary Sue is, right? Overly special?

 

she wasn’t liked by any of the new characters she met.

That's alright since she's already super tight with Leia, Chewy, Luke, and an entire resistance that had known her for 12 hours.

 

She failed all of her tasks.

Certainly didn't fail at dying. That would have been great. Another thing she's better than Han and Luke at. And in all seriousness: does she really? Because last I checked she managed to fucking escaping from the middle of Snoke's grasp because *gasp* Kylo likes her? I thought no one liked her?

 

She was man handled by Snoke and was unable to beat Kylo Ren.

Being manhandled only to escape isn't manhandling, it's setting a bar to show how awesome she is when she escapes.



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mZuzek said:
Goodnightmoon said:

To do this in music:
*sheet music*

Is like to do this in cinema: 
*storyboard*

In both cases is usually the most important part, but as always it depends, for many songwritters the lyrics comes first and for some directors the writting is the most important part, but overall nor the lyrics nor the script are the most important part of music or cinema.

Not really, because in a lot of cases movies can have a lot of the important information of a storyboard in the script itself, in fact not even all movies have a storyboard.

Lyrics are never the most important part of music, because they... really aren't music, technically. They're something music borrows from poetry to achieve a more tangible meaning, but technically speaking they aren't music as they could be replaced by simple notes always. Of course some songwriters focus on it first, and that's okay, but they aren't a key component of music at all whereas storytelling is very much a key component of movies.

That said, I think this explains pretty much everything about your taste in movies. Complaining about CGI, praising movies seemingly solely on their direction and cinematography, and basically never really talking about the storytelling... it's a shame that seemingly most of the movie industry nowadays shares that point of view too. Mind you I'm not saying it's a bad point of view, but ideally you want people to take art forward in all the ways possible and right now it seems the movie critics and professionals and stuff only care about movies that are well shot and don't rely too much on digital effects, and that mentality has been taking over recently, which is a shame because no individual mentality should ever take over any industry ideally.

The language of cinema are images in movement, the script does not focus on the image nor the movement, is a different thing. Almost every single big classic of cinema are superb expresing emotions using visual language, watch The Goodfather, watch Casablanca, watch Taxi Driver, watch Pulp Fiction, watch Dunkirk, yeah those movies may have good scripts of course but is their complete dominance of the audiovisual language what makes them such huge classics.

Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 30 December 2017

StuOhQ said:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4356&p=.htm

This franchise is #Nintendoomed confirmed!

Yep. And after this weekend, if it holds the optimistic 80% BOM predicts, it's only going to be down by $450M+ from TFA. After just 17 days in theaters.

I'm sure Disney is just loving these results. /s