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Forums - Movies & TV - The Fans Have Spoken, Last Jedi Drops A Massive 68%

mZuzek said:
Goodnightmoon said:

No, Rogue One isn't good because it has a clumsy and dull direction, a sterile feel through most of the film, dry humour, characters nobody really cares about and it takes really long to get to the good parts wich are concentrated in the last act. It has some good scenes at the end and a fine plot, but that's all, it isn't bad at all but it really is nothing special.

TLJ biggest sin is to have a simple plot, something some people confuses with a bad script, which isn't the case at all, the movie is remarkable excinting, unpredictable and risky thanks to its script. Appart from that it has an exceptional direction, fantastic perfomances (Mark Hamill does the best job of its life) and plenty of awesome scenes. I'm convinced time will make this movie be seen in a different light, it truly deserves it.

You really need to understand your opinion is only your own.

Rogue One wasn't sterile at all to me, it was exciting through and through and I loved the characters and genuinely felt for them by the end, because they felt like real people who were dealing with situations that were presented to them in a realistic way. I agree the movie has faults and I agree its first half is quite underwhelming, but it does redeem itself at the end.

You know what The Last Jedi never does? Redemption. It never redeems Luke (despite the plot making it seem it would), it never redeems Kylo (despite the plot making it seem it would), it never redeems Finn (because we gotta have that stupid girl come in and say some really cheesy nonsense), and ultimately it never redeems itself. I know people will defend it as "that's why it's so great, because it toys with expectations!", but that isn't a good thing, it's just disrespectful to the audience and dramatically unrealistic when all of the characters act in ways no human ever would - instead they all feel like little toys the plot is dragging along wherever it wants to.

The movie's script isn't bad because it's simple, it's bad because it makes absolutely no sense and just throws out plot-convenient crap all over the place without giving anything ever a solid explanation or reason to happen. For example, Leia's pathetic Superman moment (up there with the most stupid shit I've ever seen in cinema) - we've never seen or heard about Leia using the Force previously in all of four movies, so how come she can do that now? I thought "wow that makes no sense", but well at least they would explain it or at least acknowledge it later, right? Nope they never do, it's just a stupid thing that happens with no explanation or acknowledgement and no reason other than "we want to kill every Resistance leader but Leia needs to survive somehow". Or for example, Snoke spending half the movie showing a level of power and knowledge with the Force pretty much beyond anything we've ever seen in Star Wars, yet he can't notice his own apprentice (who is clearly still garbage) turning the lightsaber right next to him. Or how Holdo, the supposed right-hand of Leia (a character we've never heard of but suddenly exists, because reasons? Couldn't it be Lando or something?), someone she really trusted, has an absolutely pathetic role where she is incapable of explaining, or at the very least motivating her own crew, leading her to be inevitably overthrown just so later the movie can throw a cheap "she was good all along and Poe is stupid" twist?

Also the plot twists. I know it might be hard to believe for some, but having twists for the sake of twists with no prior build-up or no subsequent pay-off isn't a good thing, and this movie doesn't do it once or twice, it does it once or twice every 10 minutes. I hate how everything needs to have twist, everything needs to have a "gotcha" moment where the movie feels like it just wants to laugh at its audience. Plot twists aren't a good thing on their own, they become good eventually when they are 1. impactful, and 2. have a prolonged effect on the story. The plot twists here do none of that. Kylo Ren suddenly becoming evil again in the most unbelievable way after the whole movie was building up to his redemption? That didn't only not make sense, it's a twist that inevitably has no outcome as we just go back to how things were before. Luke dying on the Jedi Temple without doing anything meaningful despite obviously having the chance to with the previously set up X-Wing and also having his redemption built up throughout the movie? That also doesn't make sense given his character, and also has no impact on the story as now he's just gonna be a force ghost and as we've seen here, suddenly force ghosts can now actually influence the real world because... reasons? Again never explained and never acknowledged, it just happens because Disney wanted to put Yoda in one of their movies somehow and that's that (don't get me started on how stupid it is that Luke still needs Yoda's guidance after all this time).

Look, I understand where the lovers come from. The direction and cinematography here is truly outstanding, some scenes like Holdo's sacrifice (as meaningless as it was story-wise) or the final battle on Hoth 2.0 or even the flashback scenes between Luke and Kylo (which by the way were the only thing I actually liked about the story) among many others, it was all shot very well and it looked amazing. Some people also really like not knowing what to expect from a movie, and from those it also makes sense to love it since it is indeed all twists all the time. But you have to understand that no, this isn't the only truth, there are several opinions and hating this movie is clearly a common one, and it actually has good reason.

@ bold

Exactly.  There's nothing wrong with toying with people's expectations.  But, when you do it, it must lead them to something not only unexpected, but also something equally as awesome and fulfilling.  You don't play with people's expectations by having something seem to mean something, then just saying, "Nope, gotcha, it all meant nothing."  That makes the director more out to be a troll, not a visionary.

Personally, I don't know how he thinks time will be kind to this film.  If we know anything, it is that time is not kind to films.  Very few stand that test of time, especially those in the sci-fi genre.  And there has never been a film that divides people like this one, with people letting it be known with their wallets, to then becoming some grand masterpiece to all in the future.  TFA is now looked back by many as a movie that is just ok, where many of those same people thought it was awesome when it first released.  Time isn't going to be kind to this movie when around half of the people who watched think it was either just ok or pretty bad just after they got done watching it, with very few redeeming qualities.



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Cerebralbore101 said:
Without spoiling anything, what was so bad about this movie? I haven't seen it yet.

Die hard Star War fans are salty because the movie doesn't fit any of the theories they spent the last two years throwing around, in a nutshell thats why it has any backlash from the so called "core fans" and is actualy loved by anyone who likes movies in general because it is a great movie. And this is the second movie in a trilogy, it would always have the worst BO of the 3, also its gona make way more than 1 billion $ worldwide so ye nice try.



mZuzek said:
Goodnightmoon said:

No, Rogue One isn't good because it has a clumsy and dull direction, a sterile feel through most of the film, dry humour, characters nobody really cares about and it takes really long to get to the good parts wich are concentrated in the last act. It has some good scenes at the end and a fine plot, but that's all, it isn't bad at all but it really is nothing special.

TLJ biggest sin is to have a simple plot, something some people confuses with a bad script, which isn't the case at all, the movie is remarkable excinting, unpredictable and risky thanks to its script. Appart from that it has an exceptional direction, fantastic perfomances (Mark Hamill does the best job of its life) and plenty of awesome scenes. I'm convinced time will make this movie be seen in a different light, it truly deserves it.

You really need to understand your opinion is only your own.

Rogue One wasn't sterile at all to me, it was exciting through and through and I loved the characters and genuinely felt for them by the end, because they felt like real people who were dealing with situations that were presented to them in a realistic way. I agree the movie has faults and I agree its first half is quite underwhelming, but it does redeem itself at the end.

You know what The Last Jedi never does? Redemption. It never redeems Luke (despite the plot making it seem it would), it never redeems Kylo (despite the plot making it seem it would), it never redeems Finn (because we gotta have that stupid girl come in and say some really cheesy nonsense), and ultimately it never redeems itself. I know people will defend it as "that's why it's so great, because it toys with expectations!", but that isn't a good thing, it's just disrespectful to the audience and dramatically unrealistic when all of the characters act in ways no human ever would - instead they all feel like little toys the plot is dragging along wherever it wants to.

The movie's script isn't bad because it's simple, it's bad because it makes absolutely no sense and just throws out plot-convenient crap all over the place without giving anything ever a solid explanation or reason to happen. For example, Leia's pathetic Superman moment (up there with the most stupid shit I've ever seen in cinema) - we've never seen or heard about Leia using the Force previously in all of four movies, so how come she can do that now? I thought "wow that makes no sense", but well at least they would explain it or at least acknowledge it later, right? Nope they never do, it's just a stupid thing that happens with no explanation or acknowledgement and no reason other than "we want to kill every Resistance leader but Leia needs to survive somehow". Or for example, Snoke spending half the movie showing a level of power and knowledge with the Force pretty much beyond anything we've ever seen in Star Wars, yet he can't notice his own apprentice (who is clearly still garbage) turning the lightsaber right next to him. Or how Holdo, the supposed right-hand of Leia (a character we've never heard of but suddenly exists, because reasons? Couldn't it be Lando or something?), someone she really trusted, has an absolutely pathetic role where she is incapable of explaining, or at the very least motivating her own crew, leading her to be inevitably overthrown just so later the movie can throw a cheap "she was good all along and Poe is stupid" twist?

Also the plot twists. I know it might be hard to believe for some, but having twists for the sake of twists with no prior build-up or no subsequent pay-off isn't a good thing, and this movie doesn't do it once or twice, it does it once or twice every 10 minutes. I hate how everything needs to have twist, everything needs to have a "gotcha" moment where the movie feels like it just wants to laugh at its audience. Plot twists aren't a good thing on their own, they become good eventually when they are 1. impactful, and 2. have a prolonged effect on the story. The plot twists here do none of that. Kylo Ren suddenly becoming evil again in the most unbelievable way after the whole movie was building up to his redemption? That didn't only not make sense, it's a twist that inevitably has no outcome as we just go back to how things were before. Luke dying on the Jedi Temple without doing anything meaningful despite obviously having the chance to with the previously set up X-Wing and also having his redemption built up throughout the movie? That also doesn't make sense given his character, and also has no impact on the story as now he's just gonna be a force ghost and as we've seen here, suddenly force ghosts can now actually influence the real world because... reasons? Again never explained and never acknowledged, it just happens because Disney wanted to put Yoda in one of their movies somehow and that's that (don't get me started on how stupid it is that Luke still needs Yoda's guidance after all this time).

Look, I understand where the lovers come from. The direction and cinematography here is truly outstanding, some scenes like Holdo's sacrifice (as meaningless as it was story-wise) or the final battle on Hoth 2.0 or even the flashback scenes between Luke and Kylo (which by the way were the only thing I actually liked about the story) among many others, it was all shot very well and it looked amazing. Some people also really like not knowing what to expect from a movie, and from those it also makes sense to love it since it is indeed all twists all the time. But you have to understand that no, this isn't the only truth, there are several opinions and hating this movie is clearly a common one, and it actually has good reason.

You also need to understand that I don't need to put "in my opinion" in every message as that's obvious enough. Reading your post feels like if the original trilogy was made today it would be destroyed by the public as they take a lot of freedom to do what they want without explaining a lot of things, yet somehow that's a huge mistakes in this one but not in the old ones. No, Leia flying is not among the most stupid things you have seen in cinema, the scene itself may look a bit cheesy, but we already know from episode 6 that Leia is supposed to have the force, she is part of a lineage where the force is incredibly strong and his own brother said to her that she would use it someday, and she did, in a critical situation she awakes her force and she does nothing spectacular with it, she simply push hereself in the void, she doesn't elevate a spaceship or creates an ilusion from galaxies of distance, she simply push herself, there's nothing crazy about that scene at all yet I have the feeling that's the scene in which many people decided the movie was bad and they saw the rest under the perspective that the movie was shit when is (in my opinion) clearly one of the best of the saga and every fucking professional of cinema and professional critic seems to think the same, is one of those cases when the movie takes years to be appreciated by the fans, but it will, specially if episode IX turns to be great.

Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 29 December 2017

NightlyPoe said:
Mandalore76 said:

Agree to disagree on the Stackpole books.  I was reading all the EU books back then, because it was before the prequels, and it was the only Star Wars out there.  I read the X-Wing series up to "The Bacta War", and I didn't care for it much.  It was full of ridiculously contrived nonsense like mentioning an Alderaanian War Frigate "Another Chance" which was said to be "loaded with all of the weapons of Alderaan".  The Frigate was supposedly a "legendary myth" and then Rogue Squadron finds the Frigate a few pages later and adds it to their fleet.  After that, "The Phantom Menace" was out, and I could see Star Wars in the theater again.  The Kevin J. Anderson and Roger MacBride Allen books are total garbage.  I'm pretty sure that one of those 2 authors bragged in the Foreward that he wrote one of the books in a ridiculous short amount of time like it was some impressive feat worthy of bragging about.  The novel read like it was hastily written too.  Bantam Books didn't even bother to edit it.  I found a mistake on almost every page.  At one point, they interchanged the name of a planet with one of the main characters stating that the Millenium Falcon landed on her.  Another one of the books hopped from planet to planet that were used in the original trilogy to make the reader say, "oh cool it's Endor again!"  While back on Hoth, Luke encounters a one-armed Wampa.  Yep, the one he cut the arm off of in Empire Strikes Back.  In the intervening years, the one-armed Wampa had been teaching the other Wampa's guerrilla tactics and was leading them like a general in battles against big game hunters who had been coming to Hoth for trophies.  The only time I want to see Luke encounter the Wampa whose arm he cut off is on Robot Chicken.  Because at least RC isn't trying to pass itself off as serious.

  

You seem to have a faulty memory.  Wedge says immediately that the Another Chance had been found and its weapons added to the Rebellion years earlier, during the time of the Original Trilogy movies.  For the record, the Another Chance story was taken from a West End RPG story back in the early 90s before Zahn even started his work.  The transponder one of the pilots was using only happened to find one of the support ships waiting in Alderaan's debris field.  Contrived, perhaps, but they didn't stumble onto a legendary vessel.  The legend itself not living up to itself.

You're also conflating Darksaber (the whole Callista cycle was a debacle) and Champions of the Force.

I liked Zahn's work as well, it's up there among my favorites of the Star Wars novels.  It's not like there's a zero sum game where I can only like one author.  I just liked Allston's more humorous and adventurous take myself.

It was many years ago that I read them, so I don't doubt that I have confused some of my issues with them, or the specific book titles themselves.  The Callista escapade was indeed from "Darksaber" as you correctly pointed out.   However, "Darksaber" was written by Kevin J. Anderson who also wrote "The Jedi Academy" Trilogy of books that I pictured.  I just happened to confuse one of his shoddy works for another.  I singled out Zahn, because he was the only author of a licensed work that I was so enthralled with that I also began searching for and reading his original works.  Other Star War authors like Kevin J Anderson, Roger MacBride Allen, and Barbara Hambly ended up putting me off reading fiction entirely.  I've spent the least several years reading history books in my leisure time.  Another thing that became absurd to me at the time was the fact there were so many different authors working on the same property that portrayal of characters ended up becoming incongruous from one series to the next. 

One specific example would be (and you might remember the specific books and authors than I do at this point) how different authors seemed to be arguing in print whether or not Lando Calrissian and Mara Jade were sleeping with each other.  I could be wrong on this, but I seem to remember their coupling originally insinuated in a novel by one author.  Only to be laughed off and refuted in a following novel by a different author.  And then completely reversed back with an exclamation point by Barbara Hambly in her "Children of the Jedi" book where she depicted Mara wearing Lando's gold chain and shirt and sporting post-coital hair with Lando standing behind her as she answered a holo call from Han and Leia.

 



I'll never know how Leia using the force (Which she has) is a crime against cinema, but teddy bears destroying an intergalactic empire made for a great movie.



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Rather than defense, this reeks as desperation.
Arguments never came to defend this movie.



Proud to be the first cool Nintendo fan ever

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Pavolink said:
Rather than defense, this reeks as desperation.
Arguments never came to defend this movie.

All I was really doing was expressing my opinion on the film. 



Mr.GameCrazy said:
Pavolink said:
Rather than defense, this reeks as desperation.
Arguments never came to defend this movie.

All I was really doing was expressing my opinion on the film. 

Which is a thousand times more respectable than hating a film you haven't seen and talking about lack of arguments when you never gave a single one. So basically what he is doing.



LadyJasmine said:
its funny that two films have passed but we never got 2 mins of dialogue explaining what happened between ROTJ and Episode 7.

The prequels happened and then George sold SW to Disney which is now going to merch and Call of Duty it to oblivion. A Han Solo story, in theaters this summer!



Shadow1980 said:
Soundwave said:

People just need to fucking relax with Star Wars.

You're never getting the Original Trilogy again. That was lightning in a bottle, something that happens once in a life time. You're never going to be 9 years old again. Accept it and move on.

The only thing the sequel trilogy does is lift Star Wars from the laughably awful wooden prequels to a level that's comparable/better than modern blockbuster movies like the Marvel films, Harry Potter, etc. It's better than the Hobbit films. 

And that's all you're going to get. You're not going to get something that reaffirms your childhood, you're a grown up. Get over it. If you're going to nit pick everything to death you're never going to enjoy anything. Also Empire had a large drop from A New Hope, AOTC also had a huge drop from Phantom Menace. 

^This.

Nostalgia has clouded too many people's vision. We all grew up with Star Wars. Hell, I've been there since ROTJ was new, and I even had a couple of the old 1983-84 toys. The franchise, and especially the OT, will always be part our collective cultural consciousness. They're classics that will be fondly remembered long after we're all dead. I've watched them myself probably 200 times or more in the past 30+ years. The fact that I grew up with the OT (the original pre-special edition versions, even!) means that, regardless of quality, more recent films in the franchise will probably never fully live up to them in terms of their impact on me. We will always elevate certain classics we enjoyed as kids above films we experience in our 20s, 30s, or later. Because we grew up with them and are special to us, we tend to excuse their flaws (and what movie doesn't have flaws?). Our nostalgia has rendered them perfect in our eyes. But that doesn't mean that "New Hotness" can't also be enjoyable.

Do I like the new trilogy more than the OT? Of course not. I can't. The OT was an important part of my childhood, and I watched those three movies as often as I could (I'd go running into the living room whenever I heard this). But the new films are still immensely enjoyable movies. I watch TFA regularly, and I've enjoyed every minute of it. Rogue One had masterful cinematography and set pieces that kept me glued to the seat. And TLJ was fun movie, one which I will be seeing again Saturday, and one that has me interested and excited to see where the story goes in Episode IX. I'd give each of them a solid 8 out of 10, better than what I'd give the prequels.

But some people have some idea built up in their head about what Star Wars is supposed to be, and when their expectations get subverted, they take it personally, as if someone is shitting all over their childhood. They make overblown claims about how the new films are supposed cinematic atrocities. They engage in nitpicky complaints that one could easily lodge against the original films, and engage in special pleading to say "No, this is totally different because I say so." They exaggerate supposed flaws (e.g., calling Rey a Mary Sue when she's not). And now they go out of their way to discourage others from viewing TLJ at all just to hurt the film, and they even use specious comparisons of box office data to make the film look like a borderline flop (or at least a disappointment) when it's anything but. The sheer amount of hate from certain circles of the internet is simply beyond the pale. This thread, as well as certain other places on the internet (IGN comments section comes to mind), have turned into an "I hate NuWars!" circlejerk. It's unwarranted, unneeded, and has made the Star Wars fan community toxic as fuck. I have never seen so much salt over a fucking movie before.

This may be my favourite post in the whole thread