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Forums - Politics Discussion - Donald Trump: How Do You Feel about Him Now? (Poll)

 

Last November,

I supported him and I still do - Americas 91 15.77%
 
I supported him and I now don't - Americas 16 2.77%
 
I supported him and I still do - Europe 37 6.41%
 
I supported him and I now don't - Europe 7 1.21%
 
I supported him and I still do - Asia 6 1.04%
 
I supported him and I now don't - Asia 1 0.17%
 
I supported him and I still do - RoW 15 2.60%
 
I supported him and I now don't - RoW 2 0.35%
 
I didn't support him and still don't. 373 64.64%
 
I didn't support him and now do. 29 5.03%
 
Total:577
Smear-Gel said:

The official Trump campaign response was that he was fired because of that. And of course it didnt stop the investigation, but Trump wanted to hamper it.

The combination of lies, fake stories, secret meetings, withheld information and the progress that Mueller has made in terms of guilty pleas and arrests make me less than willing to think that everything related to the election and subsequent investigation was above board. I actually dont get why its so hard to understand why many people would think this way.

Obviously I'm patiently waiting for the investigation to bring forth the necessary info that shows something went on, so I'm not going to definitivly say anything, but to me (and many others) their actions surrounding this whole ordeal makes it so clear they are hiding incredibly damaging information and Trump is getting increasingly desperate to end this before things get worse.

 

Be honest, did the firing of Comey hamper the investigation in any way? No lol. Not in the slightest. That's why its best to not listen to Trump, he will say whatever just to piss people off. I think that's hilarious, personally. An unusual president. If he has said something incriminating then what was it? Not something offensive, dumb or crude but actual incriminating language?

Mueller's powers broaden daily and is becoming the most powerful person in the country. He has no constitutional right to do the things he's doing. One of these comments called me an idiot and told me to research how Mueller handled Gotti the crime family boss. Like he has any authority to treat a president this way. They are on the subject of pornstar NDAs now, what does that have to do with anything? That let you raid the president's lawyers office? Under who's authority? The abuses are plain to see and you ignore that to patiently wait for the results of said abuse. I don't, I think it's crazy and the collapse of reason. What did those early morning raids produce? Do you know? There is no evidence for anything. You could say he's saving the good stuff for the end but if he had anything this would be over tomorrow. That's the whole point of the investigation and he's still looking. They have been hiding shit good for a year and a half, and under constant assault as well lol. That's either top tier espionage or the counsel is being used to cover up something else.

I don't understand because I don't take it at face value I guess. Oh people were indicted and arrested must be legit. I know why those people plead guilty. It's because they're being broken down into financial ruin like a mob family, their families are being targeted like Flynn's son. Picking off his lieutenants, that's how people see this? #GETTHEDON? That's literal mafia shit lol.  I know that the people arrested have nothing to do with Russians interfering with elections. I know what the "lies and stories" consist of, it's all public for anyone to see. Illegally leaked by federal agents, unjustly unmasking people and feeding it into the media stream. How do we all know so much about this independent counsel investigation? Waiting for the results?! We get it real time because of Comey Ultra Hurricane, the fools turned twitter resistance heroes. What a joke. This shit is highly illegal and unlawful lmao. And they are brazen about it, it's incredible. The ends justify the means. I just want one piece of evidence that says this entire operation isnt bullshit.

 

Thank you for your honest answer though, I appreciate it. We don't know, you're right. I havent seen this mountain of evidence, that's all i'm saying. I have seen many abuses of power on the other end though.



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SuaveSocialist said:
H.E.R. said:
Why is the tax plan a positive for Trump?

Deficit is growing...
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-republicans-growing-deficit/

...while wage growth is still anemic.
https://www.epi.org/nominal-wage-tracker/

And corporations are using their new money on stock buybacks at a record rate.
http://time.com/money/5267940/companies-spending-trump-tax-cuts-stock-buybacks/

Because Dear Leader is so hilariously unaccomplished that whenever he actually does something they need to call it a win.

Meanwhile, in Reality, he's only made things worse for his country and those unfortunate enough to live there.

And that doesn't even come close to all he has destroyed. Look at his environmental policies and his horrid attempts to cover up the truth.



Smear-Gel said:
Snoopy said:

but still practices capitalism and showing how useless socialism is especially when it comes to the economy.

The whole point is that an ideal situation for a country involves having a mixture of multiple economic styles as going into just one is usually less than ideal. 

Agreed. History has shown that both extremes have no long term future. Communism has collapsed and the current form of capitalism is on its way out. I've written on here several times about a Capunism economic system. One that allows entrepreneurship to flourish, while still being able to take care of your fellow man who doesn't have the skills, opportunities or inclination to "be their own boss". This will only be possible in the long term if societies adopt a close to 100% transparency economic model, so that corruption in said country is eliminated. When a government agency like the Pentagon can't account for 6.5 Trillion of tax payer dollars (2015), while at the same time lots of Americans live below the poverty line, something isn't right!! Transparency so every citizen knows where EVERY single tax payer dollar goes, means less corruption and more accountability which equals a fairer society. Same goes for other countries where billions of taxpayer's money goes missing. This needs to be woven into a future Capunist economic model.



CartBlanche said:
Smear-Gel said:

The whole point is that an ideal situation for a country involves having a mixture of multiple economic styles as going into just one is usually less than ideal. 

Agreed. History has shown that both extremes have no long term future. Communism has collapsed and the current form of capitalism is on its way out. I've written on here several times about a Capunism economic system. One that allows entrepreneurship to flourish, while still being able to take care of your fellow man who doesn't have the skills, opportunities or inclination to "be their own boss". This will only be possible in the long term if societies adopt a close to 100% transparency economic model, so that corruption in said country is eliminated. When a government agency like the Pentagon can't account for 6.5 Trillion of tax payer dollars (2015), while at the same time lots of Americans live below the poverty line, something isn't right!! Transparency so every citizen knows where EVERY single tax payer dollar goes, means less corruption and more accountability which equals a fairer society. Same goes for other countries where billions of taxpayer's money goes missing. This needs to be woven into a future Capunist economic model.

Definition of capitalism

: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

Definition of communism

1 a : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
b : a theory advocating elimination of private property

  These two forms of economy literally counteract each other. Capitalism promotes an open market for improvements, whereas Communism just takes everything and worries little to nothing about sustainable growth. This idea that they can be woven together and work is downright insanity. Capitalism is based on gaining off of greed while benefiting others in the market, whereas the other is based on taking in the name of greed and not doing jack shit about society. One of these economies have given a country an economic stranglehold in the world economy, the other was used by the Soviet Union and failed drastically.



TH3-D0S3R said:

Definition of capitalism

: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

Definition of communism

1 a : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
b : a theory advocating elimination of private property

  These two forms of economy literally counteract each other. Capitalism promotes an open market for improvements, whereas Communism just takes everything and worries little to nothing about sustainable growth. This idea that they can be woven together and work is downright insanity. Capitalism is based on gaining off of greed while benefiting others in the market, whereas the other is based on taking in the name of greed and not doing jack shit about society. One of these economies have given a country an economic stranglehold in the world economy, the other was used by the Soviet Union and failed drastically.

But it is a temporary stranglehold! If you show me that capitalism becomes the ONLY economic system that countries use for 400 years, then I'm all for saying capitalism is a clear winner and no other system works. But capitalism, in the limited capacity that is is practised world wide today, has only been around since WWII, so effectively 70 odd years!! This article chronicles the history of when capitalism was sort of adopted in the US - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-alternative-banking-group-of-ows/the-unexpected-history-of_b_8707012.html

Now I will point out when capitalism, I repeat in the current form (not pure capitalism anyway) as practised in the UK, US and other western countries started to collapse and showed that it has no longevity. The moment your government, my government and every other western government BAILED out almost all the investment banks, capitalism failed. In a truly capitalist economic model NO banks should have been bailed out, as they would be replaced with more efficient banks and models. The moment the government stepped in, those western countries effectively became Socialist. The people who believe in capitalism will convince themselves that they are still capitalist and if they do, they really don't understand how true capitalism works. The 2nd effect of bailing out the investment banks is that we are now, yet again, heading to yet another financial crash, possibly bigger than the last one, because those investment banks that were bailed out, never learned any valuable lessons and they now know that if they f^ck up again, they will be bailed out again :). And who will pay for this bail out, like the last one? YOU the tax payer, all so we can all live the capitalist fairy tale. Tax payers bailing out investment banks doesn't get more socialist/communist. lol!

In a proper capitalist system there are NO public services, NO bailouts. Hospitals, fire departments, rubbish collection, road maintenance, education, no central bank to protect your investment should a bank crash etc etc. Literally Everything is the burden of the individual to fend for themselves either creating their own or finding a private institution that will provide that service for a fee. It is survival of the fittest, in simple terms. Then you get rid of laws that "protect" the individual because those laws block businesses from progressing and it the state meddling in individual lives. It's a vicious cycle if you take it to it's purest conclusion :) 

A compromise is the only one I could think of. Neither system is good as it is, hence my suggestion of a mixture.

Last edited by CartBlanche - on 25 May 2018

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CartBlanche said:
TH3-D0S3R said:

Definition of capitalism

: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

Definition of communism

1 a : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
b : a theory advocating elimination of private property

  These two forms of economy literally counteract each other. Capitalism promotes an open market for improvements, whereas Communism just takes everything and worries little to nothing about sustainable growth. This idea that they can be woven together and work is downright insanity. Capitalism is based on gaining off of greed while benefiting others in the market, whereas the other is based on taking in the name of greed and not doing jack shit about society. One of these economies have given a country an economic stranglehold in the world economy, the other was used by the Soviet Union and failed drastically.

But it is a temporary stranglehold! If you show me that capitalism becomes the ONLY economic system that countries use for 400 years, then I'm all for saying capitalism is a clear winner and no other system works. But capitalism, in the limited capacity that is is practised world wide today, has only been around since WWII, so effectively 70 odd years!! This article chronicles the history of when capitalism was sort of adopted in the US - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-alternative-banking-group-of-ows/the-unexpected-history-of_b_8707012.html

Now I will point out when capitalism, I repeat in the current form (not pure capitalism anyway) as practised in the UK, US and other western countries started to collapse and showed that it has no longevity. The moment your government, my government and every other western government BAILED out almost all the investment banks, capitalism failed. In a truly capitalist economic model NO banks should have been bailed out, as they would be replaced with more efficient banks and models. The moment the government stepped in, those western countries effectively became Socialist. The people who believe in capitalism will convince themselves that they are still capitalist and if they do, they really don't understand how true capitalism works. The 2nd effect of bailing out the investment banks is that we are now, yet again, heading to yet another financial crash, possibly bigger than the last one, because those investment banks that were bailed out, never learned any valuable lessons and they now know that if they f^ck up again, they will be bailed out again :). And who will pay for this bail out, like the last one? YOU the tax payer, all so we can all live the capitalist fairy tale. Tax payers bailing out investment banks doesn't get more socialist/communist. lol!

In a proper capitalist system there are NO public services, NO bailouts. Hospitals, fire departments, rubbish collection, road maintenance, education, no central bank to protect your investment should a bank crash etc etc. Literally Everything is the burden of the individual to fend for themselves either creating their own or finding a private institution that will provide that service for a fee. It is survival of the fittest, in simple terms. Then you get rid of laws that "protect" the individual because those laws block businesses from progressing and it the state meddling in individual lives. It's a vicious cycle if you take it to it's purest conclusion :) 

I compromise system is the only one I could think of. Neither system is good as it is, hence my suggestion.

I guess we sort of just have this level of general confusion. I will agree that a pure capitalist system in itself isn't sustainable without SOME government interaction. Pure Capitalism is Anarchy, and while pure Anarchy is by technicality impossible to reach, it isn't something to strive for.

That being said, as a right leaning libertarian, I personally believe that those banks should just die. It isn't the government's responsibility to take my money and funnel it into an entity that fell over dead. That was one of many flaws of Obama and even Roosevelt, who I feel is the most overrated of all US presidents. While it is important to help gain some sustainability in times of trouble, you cant do it by propping up those who became inefficient. This is where I disagree with the government funded hospitals, because 9 times out of 10 the privately funded catholic hospitals are just as good if not better then public options and are funded on the idea of capitalism. Capitalism when properly executed with smaller government control is viable. Look at 1950s America, or even America from 1981 to before 9/11. These are periods where America grew into greater power than it did before, and odds are if these historical records are anything to go by, we'll likely see a period of growth, no matter how unlikely people think it is.

And if you're asking, the only time I would want government interference is if there is an impending monopoly (i.e. Disney buying 20th Century Fox). That is one thing I will get on Trump about in that he doesn't do anything about it purely because he was a businessman himself, which is stupid. Outside of that, a failure shouldn't be supported. Obama should've just let GM die if you ask me.



TH3-D0S3R said:
CartBlanche said:

But it is a temporary stranglehold! If you show me that capitalism becomes the ONLY economic system that countries use for 400 years, then I'm all for saying capitalism is a clear winner and no other system works. But capitalism, in the limited capacity that is is practised world wide today, has only been around since WWII, so effectively 70 odd years!! This article chronicles the history of when capitalism was sort of adopted in the US - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-alternative-banking-group-of-ows/the-unexpected-history-of_b_8707012.html

Now I will point out when capitalism, I repeat in the current form (not pure capitalism anyway) as practised in the UK, US and other western countries started to collapse and showed that it has no longevity. The moment your government, my government and every other western government BAILED out almost all the investment banks, capitalism failed. In a truly capitalist economic model NO banks should have been bailed out, as they would be replaced with more efficient banks and models. The moment the government stepped in, those western countries effectively became Socialist. The people who believe in capitalism will convince themselves that they are still capitalist and if they do, they really don't understand how true capitalism works. The 2nd effect of bailing out the investment banks is that we are now, yet again, heading to yet another financial crash, possibly bigger than the last one, because those investment banks that were bailed out, never learned any valuable lessons and they now know that if they f^ck up again, they will be bailed out again :). And who will pay for this bail out, like the last one? YOU the tax payer, all so we can all live the capitalist fairy tale. Tax payers bailing out investment banks doesn't get more socialist/communist. lol!

In a proper capitalist system there are NO public services, NO bailouts. Hospitals, fire departments, rubbish collection, road maintenance, education, no central bank to protect your investment should a bank crash etc etc. Literally Everything is the burden of the individual to fend for themselves either creating their own or finding a private institution that will provide that service for a fee. It is survival of the fittest, in simple terms. Then you get rid of laws that "protect" the individual because those laws block businesses from progressing and it the state meddling in individual lives. It's a vicious cycle if you take it to it's purest conclusion :) 

I compromise system is the only one I could think of. Neither system is good as it is, hence my suggestion.

I guess we sort of just have this level of general confusion. I will agree that a pure capitalist system in itself isn't sustainable without SOME government interaction. Pure Capitalism is Anarchy, and while pure Anarchy is by technicality impossible to reach, it isn't something to strive for.

That being said, as a right leaning libertarian, I personally believe that those banks should just die. It isn't the government's responsibility to take my money and funnel it into an entity that fell over dead. That was one of many flaws of Obama and even Roosevelt, who I feel is the most overrated of all US presidents. While it is important to help gain some sustainability in times of trouble, you cant do it by propping up those who became inefficient. This is where I disagree with the government funded hospitals, because 9 times out of 10 the privately funded catholic hospitals are just as good if not better then public options and are funded on the idea of capitalism. Capitalism when properly executed with smaller government control is viable. Look at 1950s America, or even America from 1981 to before 9/11. These are periods where America grew into greater power than it did before, and odds are if these historical records are anything to go by, we'll likely see a period of growth, no matter how unlikely people think it is.

And if you're asking, the only time I would want government interference is if there is an impending monopoly (i.e. Disney buying 20th Century Fox). That is one thing I will get on Trump about in that he doesn't do anything about it purely because he was a businessman himself, which is stupid. Outside of that, a failure shouldn't be supported. Obama should've just let GM die if you ask me.

So the TL; DR; of your reply is your aren't really a capitalist. You're a "sort of" capitalist. A real capitalist would allow merges because in theory they are making that sector more efficient. If we are to believe capitalism theory, if a merger wasn't ultimately efficient then that company would collapse and a better, more efficient company would take its place. A truly free market, by definition, means zero government interference. If capitalism worked you literally wouldn't need a government, at all. 

 

I'm a "sort of" capitalist too, but I understand the absolute need for government to provide checks and balances. Corps have proven, time and again to be corrupt entities if given free reign. That is where governments are supposed to fit in.

 



Why can’t you have a freer market? Why are the only choices socialism or unbridled capitalism? What’s wrong with capitalism unleashed within the basic fundamental guideline of broad law? Why do we have to regulate every detail of society and try to nationalize them? Because it makes them better?

The US federal government is terrible at everything it does. It lacks innovation, It stops growth to divide the pie and collect debt on obsolete services. It doesn’t adapt, it’s not progressive or dynamic, it’s stuck in time. The government isn’t good at anything, they fail on a daily basis. They say some the dumbest things you have ever heard. Turn on cspan and listen to how dumb these people are, on both sides. Your conversations here are more substantive. Some are so old they couldn’t even write their own name down. They pay the private sector for innovation from the military to medicine. I don’t want a nationalized private sector, I don’t like fascism either. Even if the federal government was competent enough to take on such a task.

Capitalism is without a doubt the only way to a free people and a higher standard of living. Do we need boundaries and some protections? Sure. But to say capitalism has failed on its philosophy is wrong. You say it’s failing but at least it’s still going in spite of terrible decisions by dumb leaders.

Most of those Fortune 500 companies a few comments ago were oil companies. Sure a communist or socialist nation run industry can be successful. They have no competition. My state would be rich too if it drilled off the coast lol. How is that innovation though? I thought we were trying to get off of fossil fuels? How will the Netherlands support its style of living when that stops?



More Isolationist policies from the US. Now kicking their European allies with tariffs -


Next step, like China, is to reciprocate with tariffs on US goods. Trade War 101.



SpokenTruth said:
And now Trump wants to ban German luxury automobile imports without realizing that most luxury German vehicles are actually built in the US.

http://fortune.com/2018/05/31/trump-mercedes-benz-german-car-ban/

Also I kind of want to congratulate for the EU's tarifs against USA because each of them is against industries that are basically based in Republican states so states that did not vote for Trump are fine. That's very fair because USA citizens that did not vote for him should not be punished.