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Forums - Politics - Being anti-nazi shouldn't be political or controversial

 

Fuck nazis

Hell yeah 139 100.00%
 
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the-pi-guy said:

Fascism:  "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

There's a similarity with Nazism.  Similar nation and race above the individual.  

Nazism is a meme ideology about the meme Reich meme Volk meme Fuhrer, Memensraum, memester race.

You could say fascism has a history and is a legit serious ideology.

Although Memeler then memed his memes and his memes spread. The biggest meme being anti-semitism.



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the-pi-guy said:
DarthVolod said:

Yet you have an anarcho communist flag in your signature...

 

"Lenin is the greatest man, second only to Hitler, and that the difference between Communism and the Hitler faith is very slight" - Joseph Goebbels

 

I  see no difference between nazis and communists. The former just has slighly more nationalistic flavoring sprinkled on to it. 

Communism is a type of system.  It can range from authoritarian to libertarian.  The similarity between the USSR and Nazi Germany is they were both incredibly authoritarian even though they were at opposite ends of liberal/conservative spectrum.  Anarcho communism is the opposite of authoritarian.  

I don't know why you are quoting a guy who was the "minister of propaganda."  That's not exactly a reliable source.    

That is where we disagree, I see anarcho-communism is inherently authoritarian, or at the very least it is incredibly naive to assume it can achieve its ends without rigid authoritarian control. Abolition of private property, direct democracy, etc. etc. Anarcho-communism assumes this will be done on a voluntary basis without any kind of compulsion or violent force? If you want to argue that, go ahead, but I think that the problem an anarcho-communist would have in debating anyone whehter it would be a capitalist such as myself or even just your run of the mill statist is a fundamental difference in an understanding of human nature. Anarcho-communists (from my understanding) seem to posit that humans can be made into angels that are purley selfless whereas I think the self-evident stance is that humans are inherently selfish and self serving (even if we ignore human behavior, biology seems to argue this to in propagation of genes). 

Also, I was quoting him as an example of someone who should have a very good idea of what the nature of the Nazi idealogy was; not only a Nazi intellectual and prominent member of the Nazi party, but also someone very close to Hitler. 



DarthVolod said:
fory77 said:

i think that 'anarcho' part is saying something 

This was more or less the ultimate aim of Lenin though. The state was more a means to the end that is a stateless communist nonsense utopia they envisioned. You could argue that anarcho-communism is the ultimate expression of it in the same way one could argue anarcho-capitalism is the ultimate expression of right libertarian  thought. 

I'm just pointing out the hypocracsy of claiming to be anti-facist when one espouses an idealogy that is more or less identical to facism. Also, I don't see how anarcho-communism could come about without a massive Stalin / Hitler style super state where all competing ideas / free expression of ideas are forbidden. The irony of anarcho-communism is that it would require a state to be enforced ... which is why I question the "anarcho" portion of it. Why not just call it communism, it will require a state to exist in order to enforce its idealogy. 

true

I'm gonna guess ancoms just don't want a state.



Aura7541 said:
the-pi-guy said:

Sure violence is wrong.  

Are you someone who looks at World War 2 and thinks "both sides are bad"?  Most people view Nazi-ism (you know that ideology of aryan supremacy, which lead to the genocide of several million Jews.) as inherently evil in and of itself.  

You are going off track and not exactly refuting my points. I am strictly talking about ANTIFA and how they commit acts and call for violence based on ideology.

That day when people call the ANTIFA the real fascists, is when fascism has already taken over.

Not apologising violence of any form though. Fuck those extremists on all sides.



Errorist76 said:
Aura7541 said:

You are going off track and not exactly refuting my points. I am strictly talking about ANTIFA and how they commit acts and call for violence based on ideology.

That day when people call the ANTIFA the real fascists, is when fascism has already taken over.

ANTIFA and actual fascists are similar in that they are extremely authoritarian, collectivist, and willing to achieve their ideological goals through authoritarian means, usually violence. This is why a lot of people believe in the horseshoe theory and apply it to ANTIFA and right wing ethnonationalists.



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Aura7541 said:
Errorist76 said:

That day when people call the ANTIFA the real fascists, is when fascism has already taken over.

ANTIFA and actual fascists are similar in that they are extremely authoritarian, collectivist, and willing to achieve their ideological goals through authoritarian means, usually violence. This is why a lot of people believe in the horseshoe theory and apply it to ANTIFA and right wing ethnonationalists.

Of course I understand the analogy and this is true but generalising all antifascist movement as some extremist behaviour is the problem.



RolStoppable said:
Aura7541 said:

You are going off track and not exactly refuting my points. I am strictly talking about ANTIFA and how they commit acts and call for violence based on ideology.

EDIT: Here's something that is more relevant. I looked at the figures of ANTIFA arrests and arrests at American football games. Vox made a grave mistake by ignoring the per capita rate. The Giants and Jets play at Metlife Stadium, which can seat up to 82,500 people. The 21.5-22.5 arrests per game equals to 0.26-0.27 arrests per 1000 people. At Heinz Field, the 16.8 arrests equals to 0.25 (or 16.8/68,200 x 1000) arrests per 1000 people. At the Oakland Colliseum, the 17.8 arrests equal to 0.32 (or 17.8/56,000 x 1000) arrests per 1000 people. At Berkley, there were 4000 protesters and 13 arrests, which make 3.25 arrests per 1000 people. At Boston, there were 40,000 protesters and 33 arrests, which make 0.825 arrests per 1000 people.

That's a theoretical value. Nobody wants to watch those two teams.

Average attendance in 2015 = 78,000 to 79,000
Average attendance in 2014 = 78,000
Average attendance in 2013 = 77,000 to 80,000
Average attendance in 2012 = 79,000 to 80,000

It's not that difficult to do some research before you respond.



the-pi-guy said:
Aura7541 said:

You are going off track and not exactly refuting my points. I am strictly talking about ANTIFA and how they commit acts and call for violence based on ideology.

Do they actually commit acts and call for violence based on ideology?  They aren't much more violent than a football game.  

I know you are strictly talking about antifa. I'd say that even if they do call for violence, it's only because they of what they are protesting against. 
 

Yes, and here's a one and a half audio recording of an ANTIFA meeting with timestamps in the description to prove my point. And your assertion that they aren't much more violent than a football game is not true either. Unfortunately, I didn't submit my edit before you hit the quote button so here's an excerpt:

"The Giants and Jets play at Metlife Stadium, which can seat up to 82,500 people. The 21.5-22.5 arrests per game equals to 0.26-0.27 arrests per 1000 people. At Heinz Field, the 16.8 arrests equals to 0.25 (or 16.8/68,200 x 1000) arrests per 1000 people. At the Oakland Colliseum, the 17.8 arrests equal to 0.32 (or 17.8/56,000 x 1000) arrests per 1000 people. At Berkley, there were 4000 protesters and 13 arrests, which make 3.25 arrests per 1000 people. At Boston, there were 40,000 protesters and 33 arrests, which make 0.825 arrests per 1000 people."

And while Rol is right that they don't always fill up all the seats, even when taking the actual attendances into account, the per capita rate at the football games are still significantly lower. Berkley is the only one where the per capita rate is above 1. In addition, you also have to consider what kinds of violence that are committed by ANTIFA vs those committed by football fans. A few from ANTIFA that I can remember off of my head is Eric Clanton splitting someone's head open with a bike lock and a woman wearing a parody of the MAGA hat getting pepper sprayed in the face. I don't recall crimes of this severity being committed at football games.



the-pi-guy said:
Aura7541 said:

EDIT: Here's something that is more relevant. I looked at the figures of ANTIFA arrests and arrests at American football games. Vox made a grave mistake by ignoring the per capita rate. The Giants and Jets play at Metlife Stadium, which can seat up to 82,500 people. The 21.5-22.5 arrests per game equals to 0.26-0.27 arrests per 1000 people. At Heinz Field, the 16.8 arrests equals to 0.25 (or 16.8/68,200 x 1000) arrests per 1000 people. At the Oakland Colliseum, the 17.8 arrests equal to 0.32 (or 17.8/56,000 x 1000) arrests per 1000 people. At Berkley, there were 4000 protesters and 13 arrests, which make 3.25 arrests per 1000 people. At Boston, there were 40,000 protesters and 33 arrests, which make 0.825 arrests per 1000 people.

So does .825 arrests per 1000 people, and 3.25 arrests per 1000 people prove that the group is advocating violence?

Violence against Nazi's should be expected.  

Aaaand there is the strawman fallacy. Asking the question if football fans hit each other in the head with bike locks or pepper spray each other in the face at games is far more relevant than what you just asked.

Violence against people who commit violence should be expected. Physically harming someone because he/she expresses views that are abhorrent is not self-defense unless he/she is inciting violence (e.g. 'everyone, let's target some Jews and beat'em up!').



the-pi-guy said:
Aura7541 said:

Yes, and here's a one and a half audio recording of an ANTIFA meeting with timestamps in the description to prove my point. And your assertion that they aren't much more violent than a football game is not true either. Unfortunately, I didn't submit my edit before you hit the quote button so here's an excerpt:

"The Giants and Jets play at Metlife Stadium, which can seat up to 82,500 people. The 21.5-22.5 arrests per game equals to 0.26-0.27 arrests per 1000 people. At Heinz Field, the 16.8 arrests equals to 0.25 (or 16.8/68,200 x 1000) arrests per 1000 people. At the Oakland Colliseum, the 17.8 arrests equal to 0.32 (or 17.8/56,000 x 1000) arrests per 1000 people. At Berkley, there were 4000 protesters and 13 arrests, which make 3.25 arrests per 1000 people. At Boston, there were 40,000 protesters and 33 arrests, which make 0.825 arrests per 1000 people."

And while Rol is right that they don't always fill up all the seats, even when taking the actual attendances into account, the per capita rate at the football games are still significantly lower. Berkley is the only one where the per capita rate is above 1. In addition, you also have to consider what kinds of violence that are committed by ANTIFA vs those committed by football fans. A few from ANTIFA that I can remember off of my head is Eric Clanton splitting someone's head open with a bike lock and a woman wearing a parody of the MAGA hat getting pepper sprayed in the face. I don't recall crimes of this severity being committed at football games.

Nazi's killed 6 million Jews.  Protesters drove a truck into a group of counterprotesters.  Why do they get a pass?

Any large group is going to have some messed up things.  Doesn't matter what they stand for.  If the group is large enough, there's going to be plenty of people advocating violence, regardless of what the majority says.  There's probably a literal serial killer in Antifa.  Does that mean the group advocates serial killing?  

That audio doesn't prove anything.  Can you source that it is authentic?  Can you source that the nutjob actually speaks for the entirety of antifa?

You are still not sticking to the topic and I'm also not giving them a pass. You are addressing a phantom argument and this is something you have already done twice.

If you don't believe in the authenticity of the video, then allow me to share the story that ANTIFA was running a website called "It's Going Down" and one of their sources of revenue was Patreon. However, Patreon removed ANTIFA funding page as the site's extremism violated Patreon community guidelines (presumably under the "Bullying, Harassment, Threats and Hate Speech" and "Facilitating Harmful or Dangerous Activity" guidelines). If your #NotAll argument held water, then someone in ANTIFA should've fixed the website so that it wouldn't violate Patreon's community guidelines. However, that didn't happen. So either ANTIFA is generally extremist or someone rational in ANTIFA tried to make the website more palatable, but the rest of the group opposed it.