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Forums - General - If your Mother is your Father who was born a woman is now a man...

totalwar23 said:
kenzomatic said:
@rath

1st you need to indent the quotes as it is very long.
2nd Having childern is where all the problems come in. That is where people go from doing their own thing to harming others.

Now before anyone starts to reply the issue is not the lesser of 2 evils (foster care, abusive parents, etc) it is whether or not these things create an unhealthy enviroment for children to be raised in. And from all the stuff I have read the answer, with homosexuals, is yes. Now I do not know with transexuals but I would say it also creates an unhealthy enviroment probably even more so.


 From all the stuff you have read? What have you been reading?

 

"there is no scientific evidence that parenting effectiveness is related to parental sexual orientation: lesbian and gay parents are as likely as heterosexual parents to provide supportive and healthy environments for their children"

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/policy/parents.html

American Psychological Association. 


I hate to tell you this but Charlotte Patterson has an agenda.

Also you should read this
http://www.slate.com/id/2097048/ (I will point out the fact that the author is for your point of view so you don't have to)

Oh and to answer your question I have been reading the studies from people who don't live in San Fransico. (sarcasim)

 



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.


ioi + 1
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*Spoiler Alert*

You guys see the end of "The Butterfly Effect", when the baby commits suicide by strangling himself with the umbilical cord? While I don't endorse or condone "Baby Suicide".............yeah. That's what  I'd do.



kenzomatic said:
totalwar23 said:
kenzomatic said:
@rath

1st you need to indent the quotes as it is very long.
2nd Having childern is where all the problems come in. That is where people go from doing their own thing to harming others.

Now before anyone starts to reply the issue is not the lesser of 2 evils (foster care, abusive parents, etc) it is whether or not these things create an unhealthy enviroment for children to be raised in. And from all the stuff I have read the answer, with homosexuals, is yes. Now I do not know with transexuals but I would say it also creates an unhealthy enviroment probably even more so.


From all the stuff you have read? What have you been reading?

 

"there is no scientific evidence that parenting effectiveness is related to parental sexual orientation: lesbian and gay parents are as likely as heterosexual parents to provide supportive and healthy environments for their children"

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/policy/parents.html

American Psychological Association.


I hate to tell you this but Charlotte Patterson has an agenda.

Also you should read this
http://www.slate.com/id/2097048/ (I will point out the fact that the author is for your point of view so you don't have to)

Oh and to answer your question I have been reading the studies from people who don't live in San Fransico. (sarcasim)

 

So what have you been reading that would lead to believe that gay people harm children>

 



Rath said:



"I don't know what you're missing but it makes all the difference in the world. If they in fact have a mental condition then their perceived gender identity is no more valid a perception than someone who sees things that aren't there. If someone who is Bipolar has a manic episode nobody thinks its ok to let them do what they think/feel is right because they are not capable of making those decisions rationally. So why would it be any less morally objectionable to allow someone who has another mental condition to act on their delusions simply because they don't seem as strange?

From what I read on wikipedia it is pretty well established as a psychiatric issue and is dealt with on the mental side of medicine not the physical. But aside from that I have a very hard time believing that somebody of sound mind would fully believe that they were a man trapped in a woman's body or vice versa. Granted everyone has issues, but that just strikes me as a textbook delusion. There are 3 criteria to meet the modern psychatric standard for a diagnosis of delusional (quoting from wikipedia):

* certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

They definitely hold the view with conviction, thier own body and DNA is proof to the contrary, and its fairly implausible and definitely bizarre. So yeah, delusional seems to be a factually correct term to use for this."

Do you agree that the best answer for a mental illness is treatment?
The only treatment that allows people with gender identity disorder to live a normal life is to give them a sex change. Even if they are delusional there is no way to get rid of the delusion.

Basically it comes down to two options if you consider it to be a delusion.
1. Let the person live a happy life by changing their body to match their delusion (no harm done to anybody)
2. Don't let them live a happy life by refusing to allow a sex change as they are merely delusional (a lot of harm done to the individual)

See your final choices are whats known as a false dilemma.

Your first choice ignores the fact that there is harm done to someone, the person who is deluded. Its no different than taking advantage of the fact that someone is still waking up to get them to agree to something (I used to do this as a kid to my father, he still owes me a Corvette!). Allowing someone to act on the delusion in such a permanent way only worsens the situation by bolstering the belief and reaffirming the delusion. I'm no psychiatrist but that sounds like the worst option imaginable. Reaffirming a delusion is about as silly as kicking a lion in the balls, in the fact that both should be blatantly obvious as a horrible idea.

Your second option you've again labeled incorrectly, truthfully not allowing them the surgery in the case of someone who is delusional is quite clearly the only responsible action of the two. Can you imagine finally being helped out of your delusion only to discover that nobody stopped you from changing your body in such a dramatic way? That would cause entirely new issues and probably make it damn near impossible to ever rehabilitate the person. Assuming they are able to solve the original gender issue they would have a whole host of new mental issues as a result of what had become of their body.

It would literally be like waking up from a coma to find that you had a sex change because you said you wanted one while talking in your sleep (yes technically impossible but this is just an example)...I can't even begin to fathom the rationale for indulging someones delusion...its simply inconceivable to me that anyone would believe that to be a good idea.

Plain and simple the only way someone should ever be allowed to have their body modified with surgery is when they consent to it of a sound mind. Anything less than that is completely irresponsible. And frankly I don't even consider that point debatable.

 



To Each Man, Responsibility

@Sqrl. Your post would only make sense if their was some method of removing the persons 'delusion'.

As no such method exists to 'rehabillitate' them, the only plausible chance of happiness they have is to as you put it 'reaffirm the delusion'.

If transgender disorder was in any way a temporary phase I would totally agree with you, the person should not have a sex change as they will agree with their physical body eventually. However as transgender disorder is extremely permanent there is no point not allowing them to live in the way they would prefer. You say that indulging their 'delusion' will cause them harm. How exactly?



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You say that they are entirely based on scientific studies? Care to show me some?

The thing with scientific studies sponsored by a church is that they are often not very scientific, they generally have a result in mind when they start the study, that being what is written in their holy book.
Also I generally don't mock people for their beliefs unless their belief causes some harm to another person. Homosexuals currently are pretty badly down trodden by society and I will argue against homophobia pretty strongly as I don't think it has any rational basis. I basically see it as the same type of thing as racism or sexism, a belief passed down from your parents which actually has no real foundation. It just happens that Christianity is currently the major cause of homophobia in the west.



Also its dogmatics, not dogmathics.

 

 

 Wooops , sorry on that one :P  Anyways , no as I pointed you out I cannot show any proof . As I mentioned it was enough to be able to convince me , but I could probably never be able to convince others , I would need to do much more reading about this something that I dont have either time , and probably will never have ineterst . The only fact why I even took the time to attack your post is because most did the same thing against the poor faith protecting guy , what most do to homosexuals . Do I have anything against them ? No , I can actually call one of them a friend ( not best friend , true , but a good buddy never the less ) . On this site there exists the same exact hatered towards religion than what we can often in the real world towards gay people , and dont get me wrong , but I dont see the issue of homosexuality as beeing the biggest humanity is confronted now . Yes its an old example , and probably boaring as hell but whenever there is a war , ar a state where are millions are dieding of hunger I just cant stay and talk about this as being a mjor issues , especially if they ahve their rights as humans just like me , and untill they are alowed to do whatever they want in a private place ...

Vote the Mayor for Mayor!

BAHAHAHAH... man I just feel sorry for that kid... I've noticed people who don't have the luxury of living in a nice country don't seem to have this problem of "thinking you're the opposite sex"... personally I think we have too much money and time on our hands and then you have those that don't want to admit they're gay so they just want to be the opposite sex... I hate it for the kid when his friends find out his dad gave birth to him... I just see a bad ending coming to the whole situation >_>



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

@Maxwell, once again ignore the scientific evidence and claim 'they're just gay!'.

In any case people in poor countries have got the same issues, they are just less well documented. Same as homosexuals in Iran or schizophrenics in Africa. Basically they have far bigger problems.

@Hunter. I agree that hatred towards any religion is just as wrong (unless the religion itself asks for it, like say one that practices human sacrifice) and should not be tolerated. Mainly that just comes from incredulous atheists saying 'You really believe that Noah got two of every animal on an ark? You must be stupid'. Of course atheists earn themselves their fair share of hate by the Christians which usually comes in the form 'You're going to suffer for eternity in hell'.
Personally I would rather than religious affairs didn't get emotional but they always do.
Also you can deal with the rights of homosexuals at the same time as dealing with other issues.



Rath said:
@Sqrl. Your post would only make sense if their was some method of removing the persons 'delusion'.

As no such method exists to 'rehabillitate' them, the only plausible chance of happiness they have is to as you put it 'reaffirm the delusion'.

If transgender disorder was in any way a temporary phase I would totally agree with you, the person should not have a sex change as they will agree with their physical body eventually. However as transgender disorder is extremely permanent there is no point not allowing them to live in the way they would prefer. You say that indulging their 'delusion' will cause them harm. How exactly?

That is a pretty weak rebuttal. And again you get into a logical phallacy when you assume that because no method to remove the delusion exist that their never will be one.

Its this simple:
-They are by definition delusional.
-Delusional people should not be allowed to have cosmetic surgery for extremely obvious reasons.

Rationale to the contrary is rationalization of an irresponsible action. The motivation for that rationalization is somewhat of a mystery to me.

Either way I cannot see how permanently confining someone to their delusions is considered a cure in any way. The only thing it truly does is allow others around the person, who have deluded themselves into thinking it is a cure, the ability to rest easily. It would be like helping someone with multiple personality disorder kill off the real personality and allowing one of the invented personalities to take over simply because you didn't know how to bring the original one back into full control. But according to you its ok because at least then this alternate personality will be happy even though the real personality is confined and repressed to suffer in the back of the mind.

 

 



To Each Man, Responsibility

0_o ok this may be the weirdest thing i've ever read .....