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Forums - Politics - Trump Paris Meta-Decision

 

Should Trump stay or not?

Yes, stay 119 50.42%
 
No, don't stay 102 43.22%
 
Not sure 15 6.36%
 
Total:236
Peh said:
Jpcc86 said:

Salt is jummy. 

Yet, it doesn't seem that you are disagreeing with my statement. 

WolfpackN64 said:

This has nothing to do with Christianity.

In a kind of way it does. As a christian you believe that one day Jesus will return to earth and that's where his fight against Satan will start. All the people who believe in christianity will move on to heaven, while the rest will stay on earth where it gets slowly destroyed. Why should someone with that kind of mentality care about our planet in the first place when he strongly believe it will be destroyed very soon and he/she move to heaven for being such a good christian? Why should someone give a shit about this planet. It's just made for men.  

Young earth creationists and faithful christians are dangerous in their mindset, because of that. Trump ignoring scientific facts is just one more thing strong theists have in common.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_environmentalism

https://sojo.net/articles/why-it-difficult-get-christians-care-about-earth

That's just rediculous. As a Christian, you are responsible for your actions. If you willingly f* over the climate, you're going to hell. As a Catholic anyway.



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Superman4 said:

Spoken like a true democrat. Why the fuck should we need to help everyone else by giving them money? How many Solar Panels will 100 billion buy in the US for its citizens? How about we focus on us and let the other countries focus on themselves. Then once all of the big countries like the US, Russia, China etc. have our climate efforts realized, we can assist everyone else and stop throwing money to a worthless cause.

The US should help because unless everyone chips in we'll face climate changes that will ruin america just as much as they will ruin developing countries. Seeing as the money can be spent more effectively in poorer countries it's also a worthwhile payment. It's also got something to do with the fact that in general developing countries release far less pollution compared to developed countries, and for that we should try to help them out with the mess we are making. 



Looks like the US is finally showing colors and moves to true extreme nationalism without hiding behind patriotism. What could go wrong?

It's also funny how China is mentioned as a bad example when they're the most committed to reduce their carbon footprint. While they stop their coal, the US wants to increase its output.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Jesus christ people, doesn't all this hysteria, hatred and obsession get tiring after awhile? I'm exhausted just reading this crap. Really gotta make a point to avoid political topics from now on because it's seriously bringing me down. Seriously, some of you just gotta take a deep breath and chill, otherwise you're gonna be in for a long 4/8 years.



 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

DarthMetalliCube said:
Jesus christ people, doesn't all this hysteria, hatred and obsession get tiring after awhile? I'm exhausted just reading this crap. Really gotta make a point to avoid political topics from now on because it's seriously bringing me down. Seriously, some of you just gotta take a deep breath and chill, otherwise you're gonna be in for a long 4/8 years.

As long as Trump continues to make decisions that a whole lot of us heavily disagrees with and keeps that terrible attitude of his then we'll continue to oppose and complain. That's just something you'll have to deal with. And if you don't like it when people express opinions that differs from yours you do have the option to hide political topics.



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bettergetdave said:

I agree with the OP. Also really good point about him doing it strategically. I think he is way more strategic than people give him credit for. I think we should opt out. Scientist have been telling me the world is going to end due to pollution since the early 80s. I think taking care of the environment is good but not at an extreme expense to the economy. Further I don't agree with those that say we are sacrificing economic security today for millions of lost lives later. You have no way of knowing that and it is your opinion and that is it. 

The general scientific consensus has never been that "the world will end." 

 

Scientific predictions have always been some 3/4 degrees celsius increase in a 100 years. Which would put us into a worse position than we are currently (making combat valid), but no exinction of humanity.

The significantly more immediate threat of the degradation of our ozone layer was thankfully stopped by a worldwide ban of cfc.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

robzo100 said:

There is legitimate conversation on both sides of climate change, with most 2017 Democrats+Republicans(Politicians and general public alike) accepting that Climate Change is real, and it is only a matter of how much of it is reasonably caused by humans and how much of it can reasonably be slowed down/reversed by humans. I'm not gonna debate the specifics on each side, but I do happen the lean towards the right on this one, we literally don't know how much human activity affects climate versus other planetary/weather like systems that are currently in play.

Anyways, this context was necessary in showing that Trump probably understands this very basic analysis. However, he is still likely to turn down the deal. Why?

My Opinion: Because the US does not have the advantage that most other dictatorships have(counting Russia here as well even if it's not an extreme example)...those dictatorships have cultivated a reputation, over a very long period of time, that they do not bluff. Yes, that's it. Simple.

In general most presidents elected to the USA have not been extremists by any sense. Trump may not be extreme in policy, but in conduct he is - just as impactful. But that's Trump, not the USA. These are different entities. The USA's reputation is not Trump's reputation. Certainly not after 5-6 months, and probably not even after 4 years. When it comes to the principled non-bluff decisions that Trump is going to have to make on Russia, North Korea, etc, he is going to ahve to have his opponents believe he will not bluff.

But he is up against the general reputation of the USA that does not immediately evaporate once he got elected. We have a reputation as pushovers, and no it's not just Obama, in general the US has been willing to compromise and bend over backwards, financially, militarily, politically, just to maintain peace. I could go on but you should get the point by now. He can very well help Climate Research/Projects later on, but this is an instance where almost every significant nation, leader, expert, politician, celebrity, CEO, is going against him. It is an opportunity to cultivate a new impression of America.

Whether you think that is important may be another conversation.

The problem, in this case, is the action of game theory.

 

In a case such as global warming, where the effect and effort is spread out between several members, each player acting individually in their own interest will lead to a poor global result.

 

The main interest of the Paris accord, to the US, is not that they are participating themselves, but making sure that everyone else does participate. Since no individual nation has the power to tip the environnemental scale either way, it is in the individual interest of no one to participate in these global treaties. However, it would be in the interest if everyone if all participated.

 

To circumvent this problem, we have international accords. All states must collectivly agree upon action, with the benifit of knowing that all others will also work on a solution.

 

Even if you do not believe in climate change, it would set an extremely poor precedent to leave the Paris Accord. If there is no ccertainty that others respect their promises, there is no value forming agreements with said country.

 

 

And international agreements are important. They prevent overly violent warfare between larger nations, they assure that trade and consequently economy can thrive in a safe and fair environnement, assure the saftey and reedom of your citizens abroad. Putting the credibility of an agreement with the US at stake, or even the credibility of international agreements as a whole, is in no way worth the sovreignity that may be gained from leaving the accord.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

IkePoR said:
robzo100 said:

Science is not an opinion, but scientists do speak about opinions quite often.

The science says climate change is real. How much of it is due to or can be changed by human activity is an opinion. Yes, we know that carbon emissions are bad. but we don't know how much it changes the equation. Scientists are humans too - they speculate on things beyond the facts as well.

Sounds like the Skittles analogy.  It's bad, we don't know how bad, but let's take the chance.

Personally I think we should be proactive in trying to solve the problem even if our solutions are not full-proof - I want people to recognize that, the solutions we propose are not scientifically as sound as the fact of climate change itself.

There is legitimate criticism of the Agreement's efficacy etc.

The next big beef I have which I didn't discuss in the OP is that the government can only affect the very same things that individuals(all 8 billion of us) can. This international-governance known as the Paris Climate Treaty wants its aprticipating governments to regulate markets that affect pollution(gas, plastic, oil, energy, etc.), but they don't have to if individuals themselves would already do it.

The fact is people don't prioritize the environment as much as they want their governments to. That's a form of cognitive dissonance imo since the government is supposed to reflect the intentions of the people. How many people put significant time into researching how their daily and yearly lifestyle choices affect the environment? You can buy another car, you can ask the Starbucks Barista which trash should go where, you can take public transportation...we can do a lot of things, but we don't. But now we want governments to...



palou said: In a case such as global warming, where the effect and effort is spread out between several members, each player acting individually in their own interest will lead to a poor global result.

I won't go into detail since the post right above me that I replied to covers this. Individual efforts overlap government efforts. If the government puts pollution-restricting regulations on cars it would have had the same effect as if the individual themselves decided to carry the same amount of responsibility they ask of the government and decide not to buy said car.

The individuals have all the power they need, and between socializing and the internet there is no reason they can't make informed decisions on pollution-related lifestyle choices.



WolfpackN64 said:
spurgeonryan said:

You do know that countries like China and India have different standards than the US in that agreement right? As in they can have an increase in Coal for another decade before they have to cut back. Meanwhile we are expected to go down. That is just one example.

 

We had way stricter guidlines than other big countries. Meanwhile all our jobs and money goes to those countries who are still allowed to cheaply produce these items.

You do know China is already ahead of the US in cutting emissions and will at this rate only continue to humaliate the US.

You do know that China still out polutes the US by a considerable margin? Just because they have lowered it by a bigger percentage than the US doesnt mean they are beating the US. They started from farther out than we did. China has a big smog problem, somthing the US has gotten under control with Catalytic converters, unfortunatly Catalytic converters add to green house gasses so less smog and more global warming.