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Forums - Nintendo - Looking At Tegra Xavier -- The Next-Gen Switch Chip

Pavolink said:
Soundwave said:

How many EAD games do you know that have bad optimization. MK8 is a racing game, it's a much simpler type of game to run, BotW has to run a much larger open world and can't cheat as much on things (ie: Mario Kart can cheat a lot on background detail). 

Zelda was confirmed the moment they told us in an interview that they had less than a year to port it.

 

Don't know about the others. Xenoblade 2 looks very good and big, like Odyssey.

Less than a year to port is a lot of time, not sure where that idea comes from, if you needed a year to port multi-plat games releasing day and date with each other would be a miracle. 



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Zelda was downgraded from the original version too. I don't think Switch or Wii U are capable of actually running this without large frame rate choking:

 

There's a lot of detail going on there that would cause both of those systems to choke. So EAD's vision already eclipses what is possible with a Tegra X1. 



Soundwave said:
Pavolink said:

Zelda was confirmed the moment they told us in an interview that they had less than a year to port it.

 

Don't know about the others. Xenoblade 2 looks very good and big, like Odyssey.

Less than a year to port is a lot of time, not sure where that idea comes from, if you needed a year to port multi-plat games releasing day and date with each other would be a miracle. 

It is a lot when you have a complete game. But that was not the case of BotW.

 

Soundwave said:

Zelda was downgraded from the original version too. I don't think Switch or Wii U are capable of actually running this:

 

There's a lot of detail going on there that would cause both of those systems to choke. So EAD's vision already eclipses what is possible with a Tegra X1. 

That was a concept. Death Mountain, Hyrule Castle and Guardians are different. Aonuma and co already confirmed that not even the ancestral arrows were originally planned to be included, but after the positive reaction they decided to add.



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Pavolink said:
Soundwave said:

Less than a year to port is a lot of time, not sure where that idea comes from, if you needed a year to port multi-plat games releasing day and date with each other would be a miracle. 

It is a lot when you have a complete game. But that was not the case of BotW.

 

Soundwave said:

Zelda was downgraded from the original version too. I don't think Switch or Wii U are capable of actually running this:

 

There's a lot of detail going on there that would cause both of those systems to choke. So EAD's vision already eclipses what is possible with a Tegra X1. 

That was a concept. Death Mountain, Hyrule Castle and Guardians are different. Aonuma and co already confirmed that not even the ancestral arrows were originally, but after the positive reaction they decided to add.

I'm not talking about the placement of things, I'm talking about the actual graphical detail. Wii U or Switch wouldn't be able to run that, that's borderline XB1/PS4. 

The game that we got is pretty nice of course, but it's definitely not as detailed and fluid as what you see here. 



Soundwave said:
Pavolink said:

It is a lot when you have a complete game. But that was not the case of BotW.

 

That was a concept. Death Mountain, Hyrule Castle and Guardians are different. Aonuma and co already confirmed that not even the ancestral arrows were originally, but after the positive reaction they decided to add.

I'm not talking about the placement of things, I'm talking about the actual graphical detail. Wii U or Switch wouldn't be able to run that, that's borderline XB1/PS4. 

The game that we got is pretty nice of course, but it's definitely not as detailed as what you see here. 

Yes I know. I always said that. Yet, that does not confirm that poor optimization of the game on Switch has to do with hardware when there are other games that runs well.



Proud to be the first cool Nintendo fan ever

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DKCTF didn't move consoles

Prediction: No Zelda HD for Wii U, quietly moved to the succesor

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Pavolink said:
Soundwave said:

I'm not talking about the placement of things, I'm talking about the actual graphical detail. Wii U or Switch wouldn't be able to run that, that's borderline XB1/PS4. 

The game that we got is pretty nice of course, but it's definitely not as detailed as what you see here. 

Yes I know. I always said that. Yet, that does not confirm that poor optimization of the game on Switch has to do with hardware when there are other games that runs well.

Splatoon 2 only being 720p is also another can of worms. Racing games are just less demanding because there are very linear by nature. 



Soundwave said:
Pavolink said:

Yes I know. I always said that. Yet, that does not confirm that poor optimization of the game on Switch has to do with hardware when there are other games that runs well.

Splatoon 2 only being 720p is also another can of worms. Racing games are just less demanding because there are very linear by nature. 

Game is still not finished. If by release date it is still 720p then I will agree.



Proud to be the first cool Nintendo fan ever

Number ONE Zelda fan in the Universe

DKCTF didn't move consoles

Prediction: No Zelda HD for Wii U, quietly moved to the succesor

Predictions for Nintendo NX and Mobile


Pavolink said:
Soundwave said:

Splatoon 2 only being 720p is also another can of worms. Racing games are just less demanding because there are very linear by nature. 

Game is still not finished. If by release date it is still 720p then I will agree.

I honestly don't see a resolution bump happening in 2 months time, it's not something you magically snap your fingers and your game engine is suddenly drawing 2x as many pixels as before. 

I think part and parcel why Nintendo chose a completely non-custom Tegra X1 as well is precisely because they intend to replace the X1 chip over time. 

If they were going to use that chip for 5 years, they would have probably opted for a more custom design. I would bet Nintendo's designers are not happy with the lack of any kind of eDRAM/large RAM cache and only 25GB/sec memory bandwidth. They love their embedded RAM, even the 3DS chip has some. 

The memory bandwidth is likely what's causing the Zelda slow downs ... it's likely just not able to handle such a huge environment at a 900p resolution. I think that's where the bottleneck is, not lazy programming. 

The trade off of not going custom is that you can swap out chips for future Nvidia iterations very easily, so likely one faction of Nintendo's design staff won out over another one. 

From what we've seen as well it doesn't look like ARMS runs at 1080p either, that's 900p as well. Mario Kart may well be the exception, not the rule. 



Bofferbrauer said:
Soundwave said:

Now Xavier (Tegra X3) is reportedly supposed to do close to Drive PX2 performance .... at only 20 watts! The current Switch for reference runs at 15 watts in docked mode. Nvidia uses a different terms to grade these chips on performance .... DLTOPS (learning FLOPS basically), so Drive PX2 does 24 DLTOPS, Xavier does 20 DLTOPS. Doing some basic math that works out to about 6.6 TFLOPS for the Nvidia Xavier. 

That's insane performance for a 20 watt part! Now the Xavier at just under 300mm is a pretty big chip (512 CUDA cores). The current Switch Tegra X1 SoC is only a bit over 121mm. So that Xavier chip is very big.  However lets say we slash that in half ... to 256 CUDA cores, you could have 3.3 TFLOP performance docked at only 10 watts, and 1.65 TFLOP if you cut it again in half for a undocked mode at 5 watts for the chip. Basically PS4 level performance in portable mode, and almost PS4 Pro in docked mode. 

Not too shabby huh? And this chip will be done by the end of this year, so by 2019/2020, if Ninendo wants to use it as a mid-gen refresh ... it should be more than mature enough to go into a mass produced $300 device. Lets remember the current Tegra X1 is a 2015-era chip, that Nintendo is using in 2017.

Some caveats though:

1. 20W is the TDP, not the consumption, which is likely higher than that.

2. The TFLOPS are in half precision, so cut the numbers by 2 to get single precision.

3. Needs good cooling to keep the chip from throttling down.

4. cutting the CUDA cores down doesn't exactly halve the consumption of the chip. Also, lowering clock speed might be a better way to gain on efficiency.

5. Considering what the Chip is made for, it (sadly) probably comes at a premium price, especially if it needs the platform built around it to actually work.

All in all, what I could see with an X3 based Chip in an upcoming Switch would be twice the performance at most, as too much has to be cut to fit into the handheld.

Basically what BoffferBraurer said; you're making a lot of assumptions here and we know very little details about the SoC itself. I wouldn't jump the gun that fast, especially expecting revisions for some time.

As far as I can see, Nintendo designed the system to be as universal as possible in terms of the form factor. If they really need extra horsepower they can raise the clocks a bit, the Joy - Con are very modular and sized well enough for most hands, so is the system at a size which is just portable and light enough. Making a docked - only or handheld - only Switch also goes against the entire name and marketing, and they probably don't want to cause any confusion in terms of what the system can do. All in all sticking to the same system for a while is their best bet and also allows them to eventually drop the price by a bit or start bundling in games.

Also, it wouldn't be called the X3 since it isn't MaXwell based.

Unrelated - Xaiver - like SoCs running at full capacity would provide very good performance while being cheaper, smaller and consume less power than an adequate CPU + GPU combo. With Microsoft working on Windows 10 for ARM platforms, modular ARM PCs could prove interesting. A casual web browsing / light gaming machine built with phone components could easily cost around $50 with a MTK / Rockchip SoC and 8GB LPDDR4 / LPDDR3 RAM, and more powerful machines could prove capable for gaming.



SmileyAja said:

Unrelated - Xaiver - like SoCs running at full capacity would provide very good performance while being cheaper, smaller and consume less power than an adequate CPU + GPU combo. With Microsoft working on Windows 10 for ARM platforms, modular ARM PCs could prove interesting. A casual web browsing / light gaming machine built with phone components could easily cost around $50 with a MTK / Rockchip SoC and 8GB LPDDR4 / LPDDR3 RAM, and more powerful machines could prove capable for gaming.

The 8GiB RAM alone would cost around 50$ at least right now. RAM prices are rising up again since last summer due to lack of production capacity, and many PC DIMMs have already more than doubled in price since then.