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Forums - Gaming - Weapon Durability, Fanbase Fragility (The Jimquisition)

Jpcc86 said:
Hiku said:

"Finding things that are too cool/valuable to waste on unworthy opponents" is an issue I can relate to. If that is the case in Zelda then perhaps I'd be annoyed with it as well.

Thats exactly the case in Zelda. 

You really just need to adapt to the idea that you will get more. 

 

But save your Rods to cheese the Shrine bosses. 



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vivster said:
RolStoppable said:
The conclusion I draw from this video is that Jim simply doesn't know any better.

As in, he seems to be honestly surprised that he got backlash for a 7/10 score. And he gave a 7/10 because weapons are too good to use. And weapon durability (or fragility as he calls it) breaks immersion, but the health of your character depleting apparently does not.

I still haven't read his review, but it doesn't sound like he had something of value to say.

Depends on what you consider value. I mean how much value do other people's opninions have for you, especially if you do not care about the person.

Also your counter example is just terrible. You can prevent your hearts going down through planning and skill, you can't really stop your weapons from breaking though. When an action game is actively discouraging you from jumping into action, something is wrong. They might as well made it a survival game with food and drink meters and the necessity to sleep every day and stay indoors when it rains.

The Legend of Zelda is not (and never has been) a pure action title. It is (and always has been) an action-adventure, which is a genre that has a long history of disuading direct combat when it is not necessary, with subgenres like survival horror, stealth, and just plain survival. All Zelda games incentivize shortcut taking over direct action. 

While you can't stop your weapons from breaking eventually, you can delay their breakage by actually playing intelligently (not using 1h swords when attacking shielded enemies, not using weak weapons against strong enemies, etc.) 



sc94597 said:
Hiku said:

Yes, but that is the case in Nioh as well, and yet I would label it as an unusually difficult game. The difference between Zelda and Nioh's difficulty may be how often you feel the need to excersize this type of cautious play, and how much practice it takes to do it consistently. But that is not apparent in the video.
The difference between the highest difficulty in Resident Evil 5, and the one before it, is that everything kills you in one hit. So in this case the increase in difficulty is defined by enemy damage output.

There's a trophy in Megaman 10 that's given to you only if you manage to beat the game without ever getting hit by anything. That means there is a way to avoid every single enemy and projectile. But in a normal first playthrough you're likely going to get hit a whole bunch of times.

The video shows that there is a way to avoid getting hit by that particular enemy. And that's probably true for every enemy in the game. But what it doesn't show is how easy or difficult it is to do this comfortably. Or how often you'd come across enemies where you feel the need to excersize this type of caution. How many mistakes will lead to defeat? Three? One? There is a lot of relevant context that is not detailed in that video.

This is what Jim Sterling says of the game's difficulty in his review. 

"Given the additional “difficulty” of Breath of the Wild, it’s more crucial than ever to have a solid health supply, and I’ve put “difficulty” in quotes because the main way in which this game tries to be tough is to make most enemies highly absorbent and more than capable of dropping Link in one or two hits.

Rather than fully mimic the Dark Souls combat it half-heartedly aims for, Breath simply pumps up the monsters’ ability to do damage, resulting in a lot of one-hit kills even once Link finds and upgrades some decent armor or puts a lot of shrinework into gaining heart containers. It’s a cheap and dirty way of making any game more “challenging” and I can’t say I find it particularly edifying."

 

The video shows that the enemies teleprompt their attacks and a lot of the skill involved in the game relies on dodging, parrying, and fury attacks. Besides, it is very easy to get revivals in the game, because faries (which revive you when you die) are accessible since the first town, and there is a skill that automatically revives you when you die (with a cool down.) There is a lot more strategy in the game than Jim gives credit. For example, no enemy is "highly absorbent" for the whole game. All of them have weaknesses. 

So, going by his quote... Jim just sucks at this game. It's not like I am going to a Lynel with 3 hearts and let the game handholding me through the fight. It is clearly known by now that you can defeat a lynel without loosing hearts when you dodge and parry his attacks.

I suck at dark souls, but this doesn't make me rate the game lower because of it. It's just not my type of game, and we can cleary see that Jim is more biased than objective towards the game in his review score.  



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sc94597 said:
vivster said:

Depends on what you consider value. I mean how much value do other people's opninions have for you, especially if you do not care about the person.

Also your counter example is just terrible. You can prevent your hearts going down through planning and skill, you can't really stop your weapons from breaking though. When an action game is actively discouraging you from jumping into action, something is wrong. They might as well made it a survival game with food and drink meters and the necessity to sleep every day and stay indoors when it rains.

The Legend of Zelda is not (and never has been) a pure action title. It is (and always has been) an action-adventure, which is a genre that has a long history of disuading direct combat when it is not necessary, with subgenres like survival horror, stealth, and just plain survival. All Zelda games incentivize shortcut taking over direct action. 

While you can't stop your weapons from breaking eventually, you can delay their breakage by actually playing intelligently (not using 1h swords when attacking shielded enemies, not using weak weapons against strong enemies, etc.) 

Except that good games deter you from fighting by making the enemies challenging and bad games deter you because you don't want to lose your weapon for no reason.

Zelda is not survival horror, it's a skill based game and should reward skill and not punish it by taking away your weapon after you defeated an enemy and giving you a shitty one as reward.

It seems people here don't know the difference between a challenge and a cheaply implemented annoyance.



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vivster said:
sc94597 said:

The Legend of Zelda is not (and never has been) a pure action title. It is (and always has been) an action-adventure, which is a genre that has a long history of disuading direct combat when it is not necessary, with subgenres like survival horror, stealth, and just plain survival. All Zelda games incentivize shortcut taking over direct action. 

While you can't stop your weapons from breaking eventually, you can delay their breakage by actually playing intelligently (not using 1h swords when attacking shielded enemies, not using weak weapons against strong enemies, etc.) 

Except that good games deter you from fighting by making the enemies challenging and bad games deter you because you don't want to lose your weapon for no reason.

Zelda is not survival horror, it's a skill based game and should reward skill and not punish it by taking away your weapon after you defeated an enemy and giving you a shitty one as reward.

It seems people here don't know the difference between a challenge and a cheaply implemented annoyance.

Managing resources properly is a skill. And as others have mentioned, later in the game it never feels like you have a bunch of weak weapons, and in fact the problem is that the inventory space is too small to keep all of your weapons which you value. Just ten minutes ago I threw out an Edge of Duality (50 attack power) and pretty cool looking because I got something better. 



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sc94597 said:
Nem said:

See, i don't agree with that. I think theres only a few with the clairvoyance to see the flaws and have the courage to be honest. It's much easier to gush and go with the flow and simply not finish the game without thinking why you got bored. Most people won't say anything now and it will just dawn on them much later when the game isn't the latest hype thing and just sits on their backlog.

Yet notriously tough sites/reviewers like Edge Magazine, Gamespot (8.6 Twilight Princess, 7.5 Skyward Sword), and YouTubers like ProJared who don't let fans sway them have given the game a 10. It is silly to think that ALL of these reviewers are just falling for the hype. It reeks of silly conspiracal think, rather than the Occam's Razor scenario where you just didn't enjoy the game as much as everyone else. 

Of course, its not all, but most definitly are just beeing influenced by the hype. Still, i think the flaws aren't easy to ignore and to say this is a perfect 10/10 game is completely disonest in my view.



JWeinCom said:
potato_hamster said:

How is that implied? You literally asked me if I had market research. I implied that I did, but didn't specify it, and then you got irritated that I couldn't present such information. I'm not sure what to tell you. Did you actually expect someone to present thousands of dollars worth of data to get anonymous internet credit?

I started this conversation with stating how unreasonable it was for you to present information that people could not verify and expect them to believe it, and seemingly getting upset when they didn't.  But even if I didn't, I think it should be clear that I wasn't just asking if you'd done research out of sheer curiosity,  but because I was actually interested in the research itself.  I thought that was clear.  If it wasn't, I clarified it so it definitely should be now.

You are playing the developer card, using that to make an argument from authority, and then refusing to back up the data.  And when I ask you to present the data you get indignant and sarcastic about it with things like  "Of course, I'll just break my NDAs and get my ass sued to prove a point on the internet! Again, it's the internet. I could not care less whether you believe me or not."  

To repeat myself, all I'm saying is that if you don't have the data or can't present it, then you shouldn't bring it up, because it adds nothing to the conversation.  If it exists, and you can talk about it, great.  Talk about it.  If it doesn't exist, or you can't talk about it, then ok.  Don't talk about it.  Which seems to me fairly reasonable.  And if your reaction to that is to get defensive and act like I'm demanding that you reveal super secret information, then I can see why your interactions with Nintendo fans can be unpleasant.

I never brought up the data. I brought up the conclusion based on that data. You asked about the data, and now you're irritated that I can't give you specifics when it's pretty obvious why.  You actualy are demanding pretty expensive "super secret information" that companies spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to create, and others spend thousands more to buy. It's not my problem if you don't know that such information is highly valuable, highly sought after and difficult to acquire.

Again, I don't care if you don't believe me. That doesn't make me wrong. I know what I've seen, and I don't expect you to just take my word for it. If you want the data that I was privy to, get access to it from someone else that has it, or buy it yourself.



potato_hamster said:
JWeinCom said:

I started this conversation with stating how unreasonable it was for you to present information that people could not verify and expect them to believe it, and seemingly getting upset when they didn't.  But even if I didn't, I think it should be clear that I wasn't just asking if you'd done research out of sheer curiosity,  but because I was actually interested in the research itself.  I thought that was clear.  If it wasn't, I clarified it so it definitely should be now.

You are playing the developer card, using that to make an argument from authority, and then refusing to back up the data.  And when I ask you to present the data you get indignant and sarcastic about it with things like  "Of course, I'll just break my NDAs and get my ass sued to prove a point on the internet! Again, it's the internet. I could not care less whether you believe me or not."  

To repeat myself, all I'm saying is that if you don't have the data or can't present it, then you shouldn't bring it up, because it adds nothing to the conversation.  If it exists, and you can talk about it, great.  Talk about it.  If it doesn't exist, or you can't talk about it, then ok.  Don't talk about it.  Which seems to me fairly reasonable.  And if your reaction to that is to get defensive and act like I'm demanding that you reveal super secret information, then I can see why your interactions with Nintendo fans can be unpleasant.

I never brought up the data. I brought up the conclusion based on that data.

 You asked about the data, and now you're irritated  that I can't give you specifics when it's pretty obvious why. 
You actualy are demanding pretty expensive "super secret information" that companies spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to create, and others spend thousands more to buy. 
It's not my problem if you don't know that such information is highly valuable, highly sought after and difficult to acquire.  Again, I don't care if you don't believe me.
That doesn't make me wrong.  I know what I've seen, and I don't expect you to just take my word for it.  If you want the data that I was privy to, get access to it from someone else that has it, or buy it yourself.

Have you seen the secret box episode of Spongebob?  If you haven't I'll give you a brief synopsis.  Patrick shows Spongebob his secret box and tells him they're something super secret inside.  Spongebob is naturally curious and asks what's in the box.  Patrick refuses because Spongebob is just not privy to the box's secret.  And he just goes on and on and on about how special his box is, and how valuable its contents are and how Spongebob must wish he was special enough to see the box.

If you don't get it, you're Patrick.  Instead of just dropping the subject like a rational person would, you keep going on and on about it and how special it is.  Talking about NDAs, then talking about how it cost thousands of dollars to do the studies, and then later upping it to hundreds of thousands so it's that much more special (don't know why game development companies are doing hundreds of thousands of dollars of market research anyway instead of a market research firm, but hey what do I know? ) The data keeps becoming more and more special.  And you keep getting more and more special for being "privy" to this special secret data.  And I just laugh more and more.

If this is how you normally act, then the problem isn't with Nintendo fans.  The problem is that you're acting like a pink starfish character in an episode meant to highlight how annoying he is.  If you can't talk about your secret box, then just put it away.  I promise I'm not demanding that you give it to me.  I'm not going to grab it from you.  I'm not going to break into your house to get it.

It's really simple... don't talk about things you're not supposed to talk about.  If you can't do that, then the problem isn't everyone else.  It's you.



vivster said:

It seems people here don't know the difference between a challenge and a cheaply implemented annoyance.

Boy is this ever a sticky subject.

Try telling Souls fans that the difficulty in their games comes from tediously having to out-patience the game.  =D



JWeinCom said:
potato_hamster said:

I never brought up the data. I brought up the conclusion based on that data.

 You asked about the data, and now you're irritated  that I can't give you specifics when it's pretty obvious why. 
You actualy are demanding pretty expensive "super secret information" that companies spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to create, and others spend thousands more to buy. 
It's not my problem if you don't know that such information is highly valuable, highly sought after and difficult to acquire.  Again, I don't care if you don't believe me.
That doesn't make me wrong.  I know what I've seen, and I don't expect you to just take my word for it.  If you want the data that I was privy to, get access to it from someone else that has it, or buy it yourself.

Have you seen the secret box episode of Spongebob?  If you haven't I'll give you a brief synopsis.  Patrick shows Spongebob his secret box and tells him they're something super secret inside.  Spongebob is naturally curious and asks what's in the box.  Patrick refuses because Spongebob is just not privy to the box's secret.  And he just goes on and on and on about how special his box is, and how valuable its contents are and how Spongebob must wish he was special enough to see the box.

If you don't get it, you're Patrick.  Instead of just dropping the subject like a rational person would, you keep going on and on about it and how special it is.  Talking about NDAs, then talking about how it cost thousands of dollars to do the studies, and then later upping it to hundreds of thousands so it's that much more special (don't know why game development companies are doing hundreds of thousands of dollars of market research anyway instead of a market research firm, but hey what do I know? ) The data keeps becoming more and more special.  And you keep getting more and more special for being "privy" to this special secret data.  And I just laugh more and more.

If this is how you normally act, then the problem isn't with Nintendo fans.  The problem is that you're acting like a pink starfish character in an episode meant to highlight how annoying he is.  If you can't talk about your secret box, then just put it away.  I promise I'm not demanding that you give it to me.  I'm not going to grab it from you.  I'm not going to break into your house to get it.

It's really simple... don't talk about things you're not supposed to talk about.  If you can't do that, then the problem isn't everyone else.  It's you.

I never mentioned the box. You asked me if the box exists and I told you it does. Then you asked to look inside the box and got pissed that I can't let you. In fact, I don't even have access to the box any more.

My bad for answering you honestly. Next time I'll just tell you look it up yourself like some asshole would.