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Forums - Nintendo - Nintendo What-If? #4

 

Would the N64 have been more successful if it was disc based?

Yahoo!! (Yes) 69 78.41%
 
D'oh I missed!! (No) 19 21.59%
 
Total:88
Ljink96 said:
Yes, without a doubt 64 would have been more successful. FFVII would have been on the system and that game changed the entire industry. The PS1, It was easier to program for, more familiar to devs who just came off the SNES, and due to how cheap CDs were and how much space you could hold, read speed wasn't really that important. All the advantages outweighed the negatives. Sure 64 games looked better than PS1 games...technically, PS1 games that used polygons just have a certain charm over the 64.

So in short, 64 would have been much more successful.

How did ff vii change the industry?



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zelmusario said:
KLXVER said:
Well it would have gotten Final Fantasy 7 and it would be easier and cheaper to port games to, so I don't know.

This all the way. Not making your console developer-friendly and therefore, denying your consumers a multitude of AAA marquee titles? It absolutely hurt them. By about 70 million unit sales. A similar situation happened with the Gamecube and its mini-disc format, although that system strangely had good third-party support. 

It was the sixth Generation: arguably the peak of liscensed games. It was also probably the Nintendo console that the closest to it's competition tech wise, with only discs being a issue. No motion, no pad, no carts. 



The Democratic Nintendo fan....is that a paradox? I'm fond of one of the more conservative companies in the industry, but I vote Liberally and view myself that way 90% of the time?

bigtakilla said:
Ljink96 said:
Yes, without a doubt 64 would have been more successful. FFVII would have been on the system and that game changed the entire industry. The PS1, It was easier to program for, more familiar to devs who just came off the SNES, and due to how cheap CDs were and how much space you could hold, read speed wasn't really that important. All the advantages outweighed the negatives. Sure 64 games looked better than PS1 games...technically, PS1 games that used polygons just have a certain charm over the 64.

So in short, 64 would have been much more successful.

How did ff vii change the industry?

Most notably CG cutscenes being used to help tell the story. In a game...something on this scale hadn't been done before. It was 1997 when it came out. Work on CG probably started in 94. To put this into perspective the first full length CG movie, Toy Story debuted in 1996. Who would have thought to use this new, emerging tech in a videogame? Now most games use CG cutscenes at least once. FFVii legitimized CG in videogames and set a standard for many games to follow. I could say more but I'm tired, need to get some shuteye 😴



More successful? Likely.

Better System? I kind of doubt it. The N64 (like almost all Nintendo systems) are very pick up and play friendly. While the Playstation 1 aged absolutely terribly, you can pop in OoT and be met with fair graphics and good load times.



Muda Muda Muda Muda Muda Muda!!!!


Werix357 said:

actually from what I've read about the Nintendo 64 is that Nintendo made the N64 deliberately hard to program for in order discourage shovelware developers.

That's not true. Nintendo had it's dreamteam that Nintendo would release their games on N64, but being deliberately hard to program isn't the case because Nintendo had been the one taking the biggest hit. N64 had certain design flaws that made it to have a huge bottleneck.

Ka-pi96 said:
SegataSanshiro said:

PS4 had a pretty weak launch. The hardware was not that disimilar than XBO as a whole,PS4 better ram sure but XBO better CPU but still very similar. XBO had a better launch lineup..hell the Wii U did. The system doesn't do much of anything to standout as hardware. The launch games were pretty weak. Wii U was a mess in every way and MS screwed that presentation so badly and the new policies. Sony didn't have to do much of anything but show up. Hey I like my PS4 don't get me wrong but not like it did anything special. I mean PSN is still a joke and still down a lot with the worst security on the planet. I am a PS+ subscriber btw. Sony is good at marketing,damn good.

Perhaps that's your problem, you're looking for something "special". For me, and it seems the mainstream audience, all that's needed in a console is to play the latest big games, have good graphics, use a regular control scheme and have a decent UI/online account setup. The PS4, unlike the other consoles, checked all those boxes from the moment it was announced.

Games like COD and FIFA don't sell so well for doing something "special", they sell well because they simply offer what people want. IMO innovation is overrated.

This is true, but only on the FIFA and COD. There are lots of people that want something else than just your regular COD and FIFA, just like there are people that only care about those two. PS4 was what these people wanted, while none of the three was what everyone else wanted.

potato_hamster said:

If only Nintendo came out with disc drive attachment for the N64, maybe call it the N64DD?

 

WH-WHATTTT?!?! It actually exists?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64DD

They put it out in Japan and released 10 games for it. It flopped, hard. It was supposed to come state-side but they pulled the plug on it in the last minute due to poor sales.

In fact, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was originally developed as an N64DD title, and they had to cut a lot of the content because the game would not fit on a regular N64 cartridge.

I know, not totally the same as supporting CD roms from the get-go, but Nintendo did actually pursue this, and it didn't go too well.

The 64DD discs were the same size as the carts were. DD was made to cut costs of the medium to make it more appealing to third parties and more profitable for Nintendo.

KrspaceT said:
zelmusario said:

This all the way. Not making your console developer-friendly and therefore, denying your consumers a multitude of AAA marquee titles? It absolutely hurt them. By about 70 million unit sales. A similar situation happened with the Gamecube and its mini-disc format, although that system strangely had good third-party support. 

It was the sixth Generation: arguably the peak of liscensed games. It was also probably the Nintendo console that the closest to it's competition tech wise, with only discs being a issue. No motion, no pad, no carts. 

This is how it looks if you were born yesterday and don't really know what the devices hold inside. N64/PSX/(PS2) had the same architecture. Sixth gen had had PS2 being similar to PSX and N64, GC similar to PPC Mac and Xbox to IBM PC. Fifth gen was more like 8th, with two similar devices and one that's different. 

You can make anything look different if you just cherrypick the differences.

zelmusario said:
KLXVER said:
Well it would have gotten Final Fantasy 7 and it would be easier and cheaper to port games to, so I don't know.

This all the way. Not making your console developer-friendly and therefore, denying your consumers a multitude of AAA marquee titles? It absolutely hurt them. By about 70 million unit sales. A similar situation happened with the Gamecube and its mini-disc format, although that system strangely had good third-party support. 

The problem with N64 was that it was supposed to have virtually only AAA titles, this was the whole point in the dreamteam. The problem was with the publishers that didn't like the cost of the cartridges - and neither did the customers. Mini-DVD Gamecube used was just as cheap as the competitors discs, just like the Wii's DVD, which is why you saw third parties being friendly with GC and Wii.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

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Ka-pi96 said:
bdbdbd said:

This is true, but only on the FIFA and COD. There are lots of people that want something else than just your regular COD and FIFA, just like there are people that only care about those two. PS4 was what these people wanted, while none of the three was what everyone else wanted.

True, but a lot of those people still fall in to what I'm talking about. People that just want a good place to play games, that's who the PS4 is for and that's a pretty sizable market by itself.

Sure there no doubt are people that want new control schemes or other innovations/gimmicks like that, but there's always going to be a large audience that just wants to play bigger/better games with a familiar set up. Being succesful due to that audience isn't because "the others fucked up" it's because Sony knew exactly what that audience wanted and they made a console that suited those people down to a tee.

No, no. You fail to see the big picture here. PS4 and X1 are pretty much interchangeable, PS4 sells while X1 doesn't. Why? If you wan't something more special, there's Wii U, PS4 sells, Wii U doesn't. Why? You can't just go on to say PS4 is selling better than Wii U because PS4 has nothing special in it, at the same time saying X1 isn't selling because it has nothing special.

While I agree you on that Sony managed to deliver what it's market wanted, there was a huge drop from the 7th gen. Even if none managed to reach the whole market, there was a huge overlap between console owners, with many having two or three of them. 



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

SegataSanshiro said:
Mummelmann said:

I seem to remember that Nintendo screwed Sony over due to the terms of the contract that Sont wanted and then went with Philips instead for their CD drive, all this without telling them and Sony only found out when Nintendo announced their new partnership with Philips on Stage. The Playstation was born out of no small amount of spite, it would seem. I bet that this is a decision that Nintendo have regretted more than once through the years and it ended up changing the industry forever.

Nintendo didn't screw Sony. Sony wanted nearly all control and profits. After the PS project with Nintendo it basically was canned. Ken wanted to keep it alive but the final product is using the specs SEGA of America proposed to Sony. Had Nintendo used Discs and Saturn was not so poorly designed PS1 would have been a footnote inhistory. PS1 only had success because SEGA made a system impossible to develop for and N64 used carts. PS4 became a success out of the gate because MS and Nintendo messed up not much more to it than that.

If you start negotiations on a contract for hardware and then decide to pull out and join another partner without telling the previous one and then proceed to drop this bomb on stage; that's screwing someone over. No two ways about it. And yes, Sony wanted to make money off of this, they were a huge deal in formats, movies and music and their distribution channels alone were easily worth the cost, it wasn't really such an unreasonable demand for what they would have brought to the table. Your second sentence is also a bit funny when you think about Nintendo's own policies towards 3rd parties in the 80's and early 90's. They were now faced with having use of someone with influence and platforms into markets they wanted to access and they needed to forsake some profits and control to get there, but felt that this was really unfair, despite their own Hitler-esque tactics employed against both developers and retailers for about a decade. It's a special kind of irony, this.

PS1 being a footnote in history if N64 had disc and Saturn was simply better designed is simply speculation, it's highly unlikely that it would have been irrelevant. It brought 3D fighters to the fore with titles like Tohshinden and Tekken, it had the arcade crowd appeal with titles like Ridge Racer and Wipeout, it even had computer fans excited with titles like Road Rash, Warhammer, later Diablo and similar fare and it had more childproof games like Jumping Jack Flash. Great platformers, action titles, racing greats like Need for Speed and some really good RPG's and ARPG's to top it off. This wide appeal wouldn't have gone away even with stronger competition and with decent pricing and hardware as well as CD audio and FMV capabilities, it's really hard to make arguments making it a "footnote in history", perhaps even impossible.

The PS4 also carried the flag of three successful consoles before it, the worst of which sold about 90 million, so to attribute its success solely to the failings of MS and Nintendo is grossly inaccurate by all logic. It doesn't innovate or surprise or go anywhere unexpected at all, and this is exactly why it's selling like it is. Placid and safe, a decent business proposal but not hugely exciting for old, grizzled gamers like myself, but that's a different matter. Even if I'm not over the moon about a product, that doesn't mean I can't respect what it accomplishes or that I should disregard its merits as they stand.



Ka-pi96 said:
bdbdbd said:

No, no. You fail to see the big picture here. PS4 and X1 are pretty much interchangeable, PS4 sells while X1 doesn't. Why? If you wan't something more special, there's Wii U, PS4 sells, Wii U doesn't. Why? You can't just go on to say PS4 is selling better than Wii U because PS4 has nothing special in it, at the same time saying X1 isn't selling because it has nothing special.

While I agree you on that Sony managed to deliver what it's market wanted, there was a huge drop from the 7th gen. Even if none managed to reach the whole market, there was a huge overlap between console owners, with many having two or three of them. 

Does the X1 really not sell though? It was outpacing the 360 for awhile, at least until we stopped getting updates from MS at least Plus looks like it will end up over 50m when all's said and done, 50m is definitely a respectable amount. Besides, the PS4 does a lot of things better than X1. All that attention resolution and stuff the PS4 got before release came from somewhere. Then there's the infamous X1 reveal, sure you could argue that Sony did gain sales from MS fucking that up. But if MS would have started out with the current X1 instead of the DRM infested thing they announced would that have made the PS4 not succesful anymore? Not a chance as far as I'm concerned. PS4 was going to sell well regardless, sales would have been more evenly split between the two but MS having a better X1 reveal wouldn't have turned the PS4 from a success in to a failure. I'd bet it still would have been the #1 console for the gen, not by such a large margin but still by a fair bit.

And I don't think the decline from 7th gen really means anything. I think it's pretty obvious that the huge sales of 7th gen were only a one off, it's not that noone is reaching the whole market, it's just that the market isn't as big as it was in gen 7 and most likely won't get that big ever again. That shouldn't take anything away from the PS4s success this gen though.

360 did have a bad start (so did PS3, though).

So, what is the size of the market then, if you think 7th gen sales were a one off and you obviously project the sales somewhere? Where did the people go and do what if they no longer buy games?



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

If Nintendo hadn't reneged on the deal with Sony then Sony wouldn't have entered the market and it wouldn't have mattered what format the N64 used. 3rd parties would have had no choice but to adapt to using cartridges for same games, like Resident Evil 2 for the N64.

If Nintendo had gone with CDs or even something similar then Square would have stayed with them and all those sales Sony got from FF7 would have gone to the N64. Games like Resident Evil would have at least been ported to the N64 and may have been Nintendo exclusive. Would the N64 have sold 100 million like the Playstation? Maybe not. But it would have easily outsold the SNES and won the 5th generation by a wide margin.

Either mistake could have been minor on its own. But both together were disastrous.



Mummelmann said:

If you start negotiations on a contract for hardware and then decide to pull out and join another partner without telling the previous one and then proceed to drop this bomb on stage; that's screwing someone over. No two ways about it. And yes, Sony wanted to make money off of this, they were a huge deal in formats, movies and music and their distribution channels alone were easily worth the cost, it wasn't really such an unreasonable demand for what they would have brought to the table. Your second sentence is also a bit funny when you think about Nintendo's own policies towards 3rd parties in the 80's and early 90's. They were now faced with having use of someone with influence and platforms into markets they wanted to access and they needed to forsake some profits and control to get there, but felt that this was really unfair, despite their own Hitler-esque tactics employed against both developers and retailers for about a decade. It's a special kind of irony, this.

PS1 being a footnote in history if N64 had disc and Saturn was simply better designed is simply speculation, it's highly unlikely that it would have been irrelevant. It brought 3D fighters to the fore with titles like Tohshinden and Tekken, it had the arcade crowd appeal with titles like Ridge Racer and Wipeout, it even had computer fans excited with titles like Road Rash, Warhammer, later Diablo and similar fare and it had more childproof games like Jumping Jack Flash. Great platformers, action titles, racing greats like Need for Speed and some really good RPG's and ARPG's to top it off. This wide appeal wouldn't have gone away even with stronger competition and with decent pricing and hardware as well as CD audio and FMV capabilities, it's really hard to make arguments making it a "footnote in history", perhaps even impossible.

The PS4 also carried the flag of three successful consoles before it, the worst of which sold about 90 million, so to attribute its success solely to the failings of MS and Nintendo is grossly inaccurate by all logic. It doesn't innovate or surprise or go anywhere unexpected at all, and this is exactly why it's selling like it is. Placid and safe, a decent business proposal but not hugely exciting for old, grizzled gamers like myself, but that's a different matter. Even if I'm not over the moon about a product, that doesn't mean I can't respect what it accomplishes or that I should disregard its merits as they stand.

Actually Nintendo's 80's policies were a result of Atari crash and their own experiences in Japan, where Nintendo had no control over it's own market (similar to Atari in the US). 

I think the logic with Playstation getting quickly forgotten was that if Nintendo and Sega had been more friendly for third parties, the gmes had been on Saturn and N64. The game centric microcomputers disappeared in the 90's, and the developers had to go somewhere. Playstation was the easiest to begin with, so that's where they went. Nintendo's problem with the N64 was to focus on the big players of the industry, pretty much the same problem Sony's been having for the last decade. If we put today's things into 90's context, we have Switch that tries to capture the 3rd parties that didn't have a market anymore due to the shift in the market: 90's microcomputers and devs making games for them, today's bankrupted studios that employees are making new ones based on them.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.