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Forums - Politics Discussion - Turkey's Erdoğan approves bill giving him sweeping new powers

VGPolyglot on 15 March 2017
Lafiel said:
VGPolyglot said:

But that doesn't mean that it doesn't work. If it really didn't, they would have just let them collapse as that as a propaganda tactic to show that anarchism doesn't work. However, considering that they invaded them they must have felt threatened.

Why was there ever a need to show that anarchism doesn't work though? I think people with lust for power will simply perceive it as a weak system that can't mobilize and fanaticise it's citizens and just take what's up for grabs. As a german I'm very wary of idealistic systems that have so little means of self-preservation.

In my opinion both anarchy and communism can work in small communities and on short time scales, but I have no clue how they can effectively defend themselves against being toppled from in or outside (anarchy) or being quickly transformed into a system with an elite wielding absolute power with a tiny layer of communistic paint on it. The later is how pretty much every successful communism movement that I'm aware of turned out.

As we can see in this very topic even democracies (that work with a lower level of idealism) like in Turkey are vulnerable.

The thing is, anarchism has been shown to not be very effective on a small scale long term, because it had to deal with hostile forces. Therefore, it needs to be almost worldwide in order to properly work. However,I guess that I'm going off-topic, it's not necessarily my intention, but I'm usually worried that when I comment in these posts, people will assume that I'm either a conservative or a liberal and try to converse with me with that assumption, which would end up leading nowhere as they would not have a clear view of what I'm advocating.



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Goatseye on 15 March 2017
Sharu said:
Safiir said:

While you may argue that the US embassy is offering aid in one form or another to russian protesters (which I'm pretty certain is absolutely true) it is not really comparable to what has happened in Netherlands. A similar situation would be to have Hillary Clinton (acting as secretary of State) to come and make a public speech. I'm using Clinton as example since you brought up 2011. But any Secretary of State would work.

Biden in Ukraine in 2014, helping to overthrow its elected president and putting his son to high position in an Ukraine shale gas company is good enough example? And govdep supporting protesters with free cookies?

People put him in power and people overthrew him.

Biden's visit to Ukraine was not to campaign or form a mob for a political reason other than in the interest of Ukrainian people. And what does Biden's son employement have to do with Turkey's agression on foreign soil?



crissindahouse on 15 March 2017

Turkey sending 40 dutch cows back to the Netherlands. True story.



Turkish on 15 March 2017
Goatseye said:
Turkish said:

Err that's no excuse to ban freedom of speech whenever you see fit. You cant claim to be a democracy and ban freedom of speech for people and opinions you dislike. Netherlands is no different than Erdogan in this regard, banning opposing views.

The ministers of a Nato ally come visit you, not North Korea, you show them hospitality, not treat them like criminals. The concept of hospitality is very strong in Turkish culture, maybe it's a thing the West can learn from them.

I'm no Erdogan supporter, but even opposition parties in Turkey have condemned this move by Europe. Europe's hate against Turkey is deep rooted and shown its ugly face.

How can you talk about Freedom of speech after what Erdogan has done? He transformed Turkey into an autocracy due to a false flag perpetrated by him and his circle?

Are you comparing Erdogan's purging attitude with Netherland's exercise of law within their constitution? 

And your ministers did act like criminals by forcefully entering the country. 

Thats not a reason for Netherlands to ban freedom of speech whenever they see fit, freedom of speech is to allow opposing views. It is there exactly to safeguard speeches of people like Erdogan.There is no ifs and buts, else you can't claim to be a democracy with freedom of speech. If those Euro states can't stand what certain people have to say then they don't have freedom of speech, period.

Also LOL at that last line, it's not in Western European culture to be hospitable, they have a cold mentality, in the Middle East we welcome friends, no matter how unexpected they may come.



VGPolyglot on 15 March 2017
Turkish said:
Goatseye said:

How can you talk about Freedom of speech after what Erdogan has done? He transformed Turkey into an autocracy due to a false flag perpetrated by him and his circle?

Are you comparing Erdogan's purging attitude with Netherland's exercise of law within their constitution? 

And your ministers did act like criminals by forcefully entering the country. 

Thats not a reason for Netherlands to ban freedom of speech whenever they see fit, freedom of speech is to allow opposing views. It is there exactly to safeguard speeches of people like Erdogan.There is no ifs and buts, else you can't claim to be a democracy with freedom of speech. If those Euro states can't stand what certain people have to say then they don't have freedom of speech, period.

Also LOL at that last line, it's not in Western European culture to be hospitable, they have a cold mentality, in the Middle East we welcome friends, no matter how unexpected they may come.

Do you realize that they're breaking a Turkish law when they do that? Maybe the good fellows in the Netherlands are trying to avoid them getting arrested or punished.

http://www.dpa-international.com/topic/turkish-law-prohibits-campaigning-abroad-row-europe-deepens-170309-99-595734



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Goatseye on 15 March 2017
Turkish said:
Goatseye said:

How can you talk about Freedom of speech after what Erdogan has done? He transformed Turkey into an autocracy due to a false flag perpetrated by him and his circle?

Are you comparing Erdogan's purging attitude with Netherland's exercise of law within their constitution? 

And your ministers did act like criminals by forcefully entering the country. 

Thats not a reason for Netherlands to ban freedom of speech whenever they see fit, freedom of speech is to allow opposing views. It is there exactly to safeguard speeches of people like Erdogan.There is no ifs and buts, else you can't claim to be a democracy with freedom of speech. If those Euro states can't stand what certain people have to say then they don't have freedom of speech, period.

Also LOL at that last line, it's not in Western European culture to be hospitable, they have a cold mentality, in the Middle East we welcome friends, no matter how unexpected they may come.

Freedom of speech is for the Dutch, not for foreign visitors that demands it. It CAN be granted, but by the Dutch to willingly do it and not be coerced by external forces. 

Freedom of speech grants nations and people the right to say NO as well. It's freedom of speech, not republic of banana. 

Nice deflection there on the last sentence. Dutch authorities deemed that their soil is not a place for foreigners' political campaign but Turkey (you) want to force your will anyway because... c'mon man.



Turkish on 15 March 2017
Goatseye said:
Turkish said:

Thats not a reason for Netherlands to ban freedom of speech whenever they see fit, freedom of speech is to allow opposing views. It is there exactly to safeguard speeches of people like Erdogan.There is no ifs and buts, else you can't claim to be a democracy with freedom of speech. If those Euro states can't stand what certain people have to say then they don't have freedom of speech, period.

Also LOL at that last line, it's not in Western European culture to be hospitable, they have a cold mentality, in the Middle East we welcome friends, no matter how unexpected they may come.

Freedom of speech is for the Dutch, not for foreign visitors that demands it. It CAN be granted, but by the Dutch to willingly do it and not be coerced by external forces. 

Freedom of speech grants nations and people the right to say NO as well. It's freedom of speech, not republic of banana. 

Nice deflection there on the last sentence. Dutch authorities deemed that their soil is not a place for foreigners' political campaign but Turkey (you) want to force your will anyway because... c'mon man.

Why only for the Dutch? Is there a specific law that says foreigners cant say whatever they want? Does that law also exist in Germany or Austria or Sweden?

Freedom of speech is something you uphold all the time, not when it suits you. And lets be honest, it has to suit Europe else they just ban it for whatever reason. Europe was never really challenged by someone who is radically different than their own. It's why there's groupthink in Europe against anything that's not their own. They have an irrational fear of Turks, their hatred stems from 1000 years of fighting.

Turkey was one of the first countries to apply to the EU 50 years ago but they rejected the country. They rejected them because they're Muslim. Not because of democratic or economic reasons, there's already a dictator in Europe with Orban and other nations where human rights are not respected (Poland), much poorer nations like Bulgaria or Romania entered before Turkey.



Goatseye on 15 March 2017
Turkish said:
Goatseye said:

Freedom of speech is for the Dutch, not for foreign visitors that demands it. It CAN be granted, but by the Dutch to willingly do it and not be coerced by external forces. 

Freedom of speech grants nations and people the right to say NO as well. It's freedom of speech, not republic of banana. 

Nice deflection there on the last sentence. Dutch authorities deemed that their soil is not a place for foreigners' political campaign but Turkey (you) want to force your will anyway because... c'mon man.

Why only for the Dutch? Is there a specific law that says foreigners cant say whatever they want? Does that law also exist in Germany or Austria or Sweden?

Freedom of speech is something you uphold all the time, not when it suits you. And lets be honest, it has to suit Europe else they just ban it for whatever reason. Europe was never really challenged by someone who is radically different than their own. It's why there's groupthink in Europe against anything that's not their own. They have an irrational fear of Turks, their hatred stems from 1000 years of fighting.

Turkey was one of the first countries to apply to the EU 50 years ago but they rejected the country. They rejected them because they're Muslim. Not because of democratic or economic reasons, there's already a dictator in Europe with Orban and other nations where human rights are not respected (Poland), much poorer nations like Bulgaria or Romania entered before Turkey.

Bro, Netherlands are going to the ballots as we speak. No country in their right mind would let foreigners come into theirs and let them campaign during a critical time.

Campaign silence is a thing and some countries set that up to 3 days before elections, where there can't be any political advertising. And with connections that Erdogan and Geerd Wilders have to the East, you think the government would let that that happen? 




Alby_da_Wolf on 15 March 2017

A private Turkish citizen still has freedom of speech in the Netherlands, but Turkish politicians (and politicians from other countries too, obviously) or holding some public position must follow stricter rules. In the past Switzerland expelled Italian politicians that entered the country for an unauthorised mission, they didn't follow the rules of the country they were visiting, they were expelled. Common Italian citizen like me can enter Switzerland and have the same freedom of speech given to Swiss citizens.
In a democracy it's absolutely normal that people with public positions obey to stricter rules than common citizens, greater power comes with greater responsibility, and abuse of power must be avoided at all costs.



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crissindahouse on 15 March 2017
Alby_da_Wolf said:
A private Turkish citizen still has freedom of speech in the Netherlands, but Turkish politicians (and politicians from other countries too, obviously) or holding some public position must follow stricter rules. In the past Switzerland expelled Italian politicians that entered the country for an unauthorised mission, they didn't follow the rules of the country they were visiting, they were expelled. Common Italian citizen like me can enter Switzerland and have the same freedom of speech given to Swiss citizens.
In a democracy it's absolutely normal that people with public positions obey to stricter rules than common citizens, greater power comes with greater responsibility, and abuse of power must be avoided at all costs.

Pretty much what I think as well. To say that the Netherlands doesn't have freedom of speech just because it doesn't let politicians from another country (which isn't even part of the EU) hold a rally there is a little bit exaggerated. 

I mean, if German politicians want to speak to Germans in Mallorca I would be absolutely fine if Spain would say no if they would think it's not their business to tell people on Spanish ground what is best for them and what they should vote for in another country (and maybe even in Spain)

And Erdogan is even doing that against the Turkish law. Turkish law forbids to hold a rally in other countries but sure, the other countries like the Netherlands are the bad ones^^