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Forums - Politics - FBI Released Proof of Russian DNC Hacking - US expels 35 Russian diplomats & Sanctioned Two Compounds

Soundwave said:
DrDoomz said:

My point, is that any one country having worldwide influence and control is only really good for said country. With how much crap the US caused in the Middle East, at this point, other countries don't really see you much better than Russia.

Your analogy is false, as we are talking about interests and not motivations/plans. And one does not really know what the true motivations/plans of foreign powers are. Regardless of how hard we try and tinfoil hat it. We can, however, guess at what likely would be their interests. Essentially, we know both guys wanna have sex with my friend. We don't know which one would rape her or date her. All we got are suspicions.

Seeing as Saidi Arabia is one of the biggest financiers/breeding ground of Islamic terrorism, I would be inclined to disagree. Russia may have allegedly (with circumstantial evidence) influenced the elections. Saudi Arabia might have had a hand in 9/11.

And you're just simply arguing in a tangent now. You have missed my original point completely and are now just misdirecting the flow of the conversation.

Actually you can read Russia's intentions, they have several books that outline them pretty clearly. 

Foundations of Geopolitics is required reading by military brass in Russia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

Written in 1997, it outlines some fairly eerie objectives that are definitely bearing fruit today namely the establishment of a new Russian Eurasian Empire .Some of its objectives

1.) To destabilize the US and to push the US into becoming isolationist, using racial tensions as one cheif tool and gaining "strategic control of the United States". 

2.) To get the UK to seperate from Europe. 

3.) Annexation of Ukraine

4.) The ultimate goal is the "Finlandization" of Europe, meaning all of Europe becomes like an effective Russian bloc. 

Here's the bit about the US:

Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics."

Yeah but sure. Maybe it's all just a misunderstanding and they're just doing this because they like Trump. Some how though I doubt it. They are using him like a puppet. 

You have gone tinfoil hate mode here buddy. I don't really think Putin have outlined his plans for US destablization from a book that has its content viewable in wiki. The world isn't as simple as that. 

And plenty of books are required reading. Doesn't mean it is their handbook outlining their plans for future world domination. They're not morons.



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DrDoomz said:
Soundwave said:

Actually you can read Russia's intentions, they have several books that outline them pretty clearly. 

Foundations of Geopolitics is required reading by military brass in Russia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

Written in 1997, it outlines some fairly eerie objectives that are definitely bearing fruit today namely the establishment of a new Russian Eurasian Empire .Some of its objectives

1.) To destabilize the US and to push the US into becoming isolationist, using racial tensions as one cheif tool and gaining "strategic control of the United States". 

2.) To get the UK to seperate from Europe. 

3.) Annexation of Ukraine

4.) The ultimate goal is the "Finlandization" of Europe, meaning all of Europe becomes like an effective Russian bloc. 

Here's the bit about the US:

Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics."

Yeah but sure. Maybe it's all just a misunderstanding and they're just doing this because they like Trump. Some how though I doubt it. They are using him like a puppet. 

You have gone tinfoil hate mode here buddy. I don't really think Putin have outlined his plans for US destablization from a book that has its content viewable in wiki. The world isn't as simple as that. 

And plenty of books are required reading. Doesn't mean it is their handbook outlining their plans for future world domination. They're not morons.

Their actions speak for themselves, they are very plainly doing the things here, beyond that Americans are oblivious to how Russia behaves with interfering in elections of Eastern European countries too. All the stuff they are alleged to have done in this election is stuff they already do in their playbook, and it's all for a reason.

This isn't tin foil hat ... they are actively doing this stuff. 

I'd like to have a peaceful relationship with all countries, but one can't help but be dubious of Russia's actual intentions. I would not be surprised if Putin fashions himself as a new kind of Russian emperor/tsar. Why not?

If you think they are just doing this as a joke, and there's no end game here and nothing to worry about at all, they just annexed Crimea by accident, were pushing for Brexit accidentally, well lets hope you're right. But I think you're wrong. These aren't coincidences. 

To be honest it's not like they're wrong to want what they want in that sense. The US caused the collapse of the Soviet Union, turn about would only be fair in a certain way. It's not like this was 100 years ago either, this was only 25 years ago. I have video games older than 25 years. All the Russian power structure are old enough to have grown up in that system and to see it collapse as it did I'm sure was distressing. 



Soundwave said:
DrDoomz said:

You have gone tinfoil hate mode here buddy. I don't really think Putin have outlined his plans for US destablization from a book that has its content viewable in wiki. The world isn't as simple as that. 

And plenty of books are required reading. Doesn't mean it is their handbook outlining their plans for future world domination. They're not morons.

Their actions speak for themselves, they are very plainly doing the things here, beyond that Americans are oblivious to how Russia behaves with interfering in elections of Eastern European countries too. All the stuff they are alleged to have done in this election is stuff they already do in their playbook, and it's all for a reason.

This isn't tin foil hat ... they are actively doing this stuff. 

I'd like to have a peaceful relationship with all countries, but one can't help but be dubious of Russia's actual intentions. I would not be surprised if Putin fashions himself as a new empire kind of Russian emperor/tsar. Why not?

If you think they are just doing this as a joke, and there's no end game here and nothing to worry about at all, well lets hope you're right. But I think you're wrong.

The DNC is the one using racial tensions most effectively (tho the RNC is not guilt free either). Not Russia. The UK separated from Europe on its own. You have proof of relevant Russian influence? They invaded Crimea (w/c is one reason I dislike Putin, a lot) w/c is perhaps the only thing that Russia did even remotely close to what the book is saying. And I'm thinking the US has as much interest in making the EU its puppet (if they only could) as Russia, so that's a non-point.

Put down the hat, buddy. And don't strawman what I said. I'm not saying Russia is your friend. I'm saying that it is silly to think anyone is, and we should employ healthy suspicion/skepticism with everyone's intentions but let's not go overboard villifying one group just because they wanted to get Trump elected (btw, my wife voted HRC and I strongly supported her even tho I couldn't vote as I am not a citizen yet).

You are welcome to be dubious. But best be dubious with everyone if you think that interests that go against the US = reason for doubt. Don't use double standards.



DrDoomz said:
Soundwave said:

Their actions speak for themselves, they are very plainly doing the things here, beyond that Americans are oblivious to how Russia behaves with interfering in elections of Eastern European countries too. All the stuff they are alleged to have done in this election is stuff they already do in their playbook, and it's all for a reason.

This isn't tin foil hat ... they are actively doing this stuff. 

I'd like to have a peaceful relationship with all countries, but one can't help but be dubious of Russia's actual intentions. I would not be surprised if Putin fashions himself as a new empire kind of Russian emperor/tsar. Why not?

If you think they are just doing this as a joke, and there's no end game here and nothing to worry about at all, well lets hope you're right. But I think you're wrong.

The DNC is the one using racial tensions most effectively (tho the RNC is not guilt free either). Not Russia. The UK separated from Europe on its own. You have proof of relevant Russian influence? They invaded Crimea (w/c is one reason I dislike Putin, a lot) w/c is perhaps the only thing that Russia did even remotely close to what the book is saying. And I'm thinking the US has as much interest in making the EU its puppet as Russia, so that's a non-point.

Put down the hat, buddy. And don't strawman what I said. I'm not saying Russia is your friend. I'm saying that it is silly to think anyone is, and we should employ healthy suspicion/skepticism with everyone's intentions but let's not go overboard villifying one group just because they wanted to getTrump elected (btw, my wife voted HRC and I strongly supported her even tho I couldn't vote as I am not a citizen yet).

You are welcome to be dubious. But best be dubious with everyone if you think that interests that go against the US = reason for doubt. Don't use double standards.

You also shouldn't confuse the Scarecrow with the Joker. One is far more dangerous. 

Countries typically try to get in good with US politicans for gain on a domestic/local scale ie: Saudi Arabia and Israel. Saudi Arabia has a population smaller than Canada, their geopolitical ambitions in the broader sense are realtively small potatoes. They basically want a nice price for oil and want to pay off politicans on both sides that are favorable to that. 

Russia will always be a big player globally, for a number of reasons, their size, their history, the number of global regions they border, etc. 

There is only one country as far as I can tell that is actively trying to sabotage/influence US elections and have a global agenda. That makes one different from the others. Very different. You can try and hand wave that away but that doesn't change the reality of it. 



Soundwave said:

There is only one country as far as I can tell that is actively trying to sabotage/influence US elections and have a global agenda. That makes one different from the others. Very different. You can try and hand wave that away but that doesn't change the reality of it. 

Your living under a rock if you dont think countries are saying the same about the US



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Rab said:
Soundwave said:

There is only one country as far as I can tell that is actively trying to sabotage/influence US elections and have a global agenda. That makes one different from the others. Very different. You can try and hand wave that away but that doesn't change the reality of it. 

Your living under a rock if you dont think countries are saying the same about the US

They are and sure the US does bad things covertly worldwide. 

But let me ask you would you rather live in a US world order or a Russia-centric world order. 

There is going to be no magically fairy land where all countries agree to not want "too much power", a vacuum of power simply means someone else is going to seize it, and those who seize power are usually not teddy bears, if history teaches us anything. 



Soundwave said:
Rab said:

Your living under a rock if you dont think countries are saying the same about the US

They are and sure the US does bad things covertly worldwide. 

But let me ask you would you rather live in a US world order or a Russia-centric world order. 

There is going to be no magically fairy land where all countries agree to not want "too much power", a vacuum of power simply means someone else is going to seize it, and those who seize power are usually not teddy bears. 

Neither, I would hope both keep disrupting the other so no winner is ever seen 



Rab said:
Soundwave said:

They are and sure the US does bad things covertly worldwide. 

But let me ask you would you rather live in a US world order or a Russia-centric world order. 

There is going to be no magically fairy land where all countries agree to not want "too much power", a vacuum of power simply means someone else is going to seize it, and those who seize power are usually not teddy bears. 

Neither, I would hope both keep disrupting the other so no winner is ever seen 

Yeah but that's not how reality works.

You assume this is like a school playground where the kids stop playing rough and agree to a time out, this is not how geopolitics works.  

Like for example, do you think Russia will not try now to do this type of thing in every election? Strategically from their POV it's a brilliant move. 

Why expend so much in military spending when you can just puppeteer/blackmail/sabotage the entire politcal process? From a purely startegic POV looking at this purely like a chess game is for Russia to go even harder on this in the future and attempt the same in 2018 and 2022, and also to do this in Europe as well (France has elections coming on up). 

The absolute correct call based on what's happening is for them to continue this strategy, and not only continue it but expand upon it.



Soundwave said:
Rab said:

Neither, I would hope both keep disrupting the other so no winner is ever seen 

Yeah but that's not how reality works.

You assume this is like a school playground where the kids stop playing rough and agree to a time out, this is not how geopolitics works.  

Like for example, do you think Russia will not try now to do this type of thing in every election? Strategically from their POV it's a brilliant move. 

Why expend so much in military spending when you can just puppeteer/blackmail/sabotage the entire politcal process? From a purely startegic POV looking at this purely like a chess game is for Russia to go even harder on this in the future and attempt the same in 2018 and 2022, and also to do this in Europe as well (France has elections coming on up). 

Im assuming Russia is responding in kind, Russia and US can rationalise why they do what they do, but they both incite the other, no good guys here

If we critise Russia we should also do the same for the US, to remain grounded and real



Rab said:
Soundwave said:

Yeah but that's not how reality works.

You assume this is like a school playground where the kids stop playing rough and agree to a time out, this is not how geopolitics works.  

Like for example, do you think Russia will not try now to do this type of thing in every election? Strategically from their POV it's a brilliant move. 

Why expend so much in military spending when you can just puppeteer/blackmail/sabotage the entire politcal process? From a purely startegic POV looking at this purely like a chess game is for Russia to go even harder on this in the future and attempt the same in 2018 and 2022, and also to do this in Europe as well (France has elections coming on up). 

Im assuming Russia is responding in kind, Russia and US can rationalise why they do what they do, but they both incite the other, no good guys here

There are no good guys. There is only power and less power. Unfortunately that's how the world works when it comes to this stuff. The best one can hope for is who ever is at the top of the heap of that power structure isn't too much of an asshole. 

The US, Russia, or China are really the only three legitimate players that can be "on top" so to speak. I don't see the other two options as being more desirable.