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Forums - Politics Discussion - Obama should close his mouth and leave in dignity

LadyJasmine said:
Lefil said:

“Political Correctness” is a myth, we just want people stop being assholes. What parents would want their child to grow up acting like Donald Trump? 

 

 

Well stoping people from saying racist things is fine.

 

Stoping people from speaking anything divergent from group think is wrong.

If you pay attention you see how utterly rigid the Right is about speech. Their hysteria over the phrase "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is a good example.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Hillary is probably the least trusted person to ever run for office and didn't talk about issues that concerned people outside of her base. In fact, she attacked Trump supporters which only helped him.

Edit: On a side note, I think Hillary was trying to be the voice of the democrats right now which is kinda extreme. Obama ran as a moderate and appealed to more people that way.

?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/lists/people/comparing-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-truth-o-met/



SpokenTruth said:

State censorship and politcal correctness are not the same thing.  At all. 

Censorship is the eradication of all discussion about a topic.  Political correcteness is the framing of the discussion to be inclusive without marginalizing others within it.  The former ceases all discussion.  The latter frames the discussion.

I sincerely hope you do not consider that to mean the same thing.

It's just a matter of degree.  In soviet society you got a bullet in your head for discussing topics that are banned by those in power, while in western society you get censored on facebook, twitter, called a racist and accused of being as bad as Hitler even if you have never committed an actual crime.  Both of these things are supression of free speech: in one case force is being used by those in power to supress individuals while in the other lies or exaggeration of the truth is being used.  I agree that one is worse then the other but both of these things are wrong.

Just because somebody has concerns about terrorism doesn't necessarily make them racist.  Just because somebody holds a religious conviction that marriage belongs between a man and a woman doesn't mean they necessarily hate gay people.  Just because somebody believes that life starts at conception doesn't meand that they are sexist and don't care about women's rights.  Political correctness generalizes these people as being bad and when this language is adopted by the media it is a form of oppression.  These viewpoints have a right to exist, you don't have to agree with them or listen to them but it is wrong to characterize them as hateful and censor them without looking at each individual case or trying to understand the intent.



SkepticallyMinded said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Hillary is probably the least trusted person to ever run for office and didn't talk about issues that concerned people outside of her base. In fact, she attacked Trump supporters which only helped him.

Edit: On a side note, I think Hillary was trying to be the voice of the democrats right now which is kinda extreme. Obama ran as a moderate and appealed to more people that way.

?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/lists/people/comparing-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-truth-o-met/

There is no doubt Trump made bogus claims, gave numbers that were unproven and just wrong.

But voters polled showed HIllary was perceived as a liar by her own supporters. The e-mails really bit her in the ass, the Clinton foundation, and she was always fighting her record. Hillary is a corrupt politician. She turned out to be the perfect democrat for Trump to go against.



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Lefil said:
LadyJasmine said:

 

 

Well stoping people from saying racist things is fine.

 

Stoping people from speaking anything divergent from group think is wrong.

If you pay attention you see how utterly rigid the Right is about speech. Their hysteria over the phrase "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is a good example.

 

Well the issue is that no one really had a problem with Merry Christmas even most non Christains.

 

It was likely one parent of a Jewish or Muslim or non believer who think his or her viewpoints trump others based on self rightouness.

 

 

That is to me the pure issue of Political correctness.

 

We assume it to be a filter against hate but it seems to more spread into silence dissent against a progressive viewpoint....Which is a correct viewpoint but not the only ne.



SpokenTruth said:

In that case, all political correctness is doing is trying to teach people not to be an asshole when discussing sensitive topics.  You can discuss illegal immigration, gay marriage, religion, terrorism, etc...without being hateful in the process.   It's when you use language that is racist that you get called a racist.  

If you want the freedom to say racists things you better be preprared to accept the fact people get call you racist.  Simple as that. You can't have freedom of speech to be racist and then tell others they don't have the freedom of speech to call you out on it.

You are also confusing political correctness with liberal policy.  Either because you're not aware of the difference or you've been raised in a home that teaches it (sadly, this works both ways on much of the problems we have world wide).  If a liberal calls you sexist for not accepting abortion, that's not political correctness.  That is the right of the left to debate your policy (just as it is the right of the, uh, right, to debate policy on the left).   Political correctness does not tell you that you cannot discussion abortion...or even hold a policy against it.  Political correctness is only about framing that disucssion in terminology and tone that isn't abrasive, insulting, disparaging or hateful.

Non-PC discussion: Only sluts get abortions.

PC discussion: Women with loose morals are more likely to seek out abortions.

Your topic is the same yet instead of sounding hateful and instigating an argument, you've opened dialog that others on both sides of the debate will be more willing to engage in.  Again, it's nothing more than framing the discussion so you don't come off as an asshole. 

Maybe you should try spending some time holding conservative viewpoints see how political correctness is used against you.  You will never see the ugly side of it if you only hold left-wing values.  In Canada our elected representatives are not even allowed to discuss the question of when life begins because it is considered to be a "hurtful" topic regardless of how polite you are.  We have a tribunals who actively censor "hurtful" speech and we have had priests get prosecuted just for speaking in favor of traditional marriage because it is deemed hurtful to same-sex couples.  What about the feelings of the hundreds of thousands of Christians who can no longer safely express their religious values in a public forum?  In Canada political correctness is enforced by law, in the US it is enforced by the media which alters public opinion, but the effect is the same: conservative views are severely stifled and not welcome no matter how politely they are expressed.

You may think that political correctness provides fairness for everybody but in actuality it only provides protection for those who hold liberal values, conservatives get stomped on.  It's not politically incorrect to call somebody a racist who isn't actually a racist, because nobody actually looks into it to find out what the true intentions of the person are.  Furthermore, you hear words like sexist, homophobe and racist hundreds of times a day but how many times do you hear words like: anti-Christian bigot, manhater, or somebody who is racist against white people?  There is no politically correct vocabulary to protect these people because the political establishment is against all things traditional and these people mean nothing to them.  You have no right to insist that political correctness is fair unless you have spent time on our side of the fence.  You may think that things are good right now, but from our point of view things are horrible because you can't even talk about the problems without getting blasted with some politically correct label like "racist" that doesn't even describe your true intentions.  This is why so many people turned to Donald Trump, when he gets called a racist without actually making any racist remarks we can all relate to the abuse that he is sbujected to because we have been subjected to it as well.  Donald Trump is our way of letting you know how bad things are, those in power don't get to ignore half the population and insist that we are being treated fairly when things are so unjust.  



SpokenTruth said:
Illusion said:

Maybe you should try spending some time holding conservative viewpoints see how political correctness is used against you.  You will never see the ugly side of it if you only hold left-wing values.  In Canada our elected representatives are not even allowed to discuss the question of when life begins because it is considered to be a "hurtful" topic regardless of how polite you are.  We have a tribunals who actively censor "hurtful" speech and we have had priests get prosecuted just for speaking in favor of traditional marriage because it is deemed hurtful to same-sex couples.  What about the feelings of the hundreds of thousands of Christians who can no longer safely express their religious values in a public forum?  In Canada political correctness is enforced by law, in the US it is enforced by the media which alters public opinion, but the effect is the same: conservative views are severely stifled and not welcome no matter how politely they are expressed.

You may think that political correctness provides fairness for everybody but in actuality it only provides protection for those who hold liberal values, conservatives get stomped on.  It's not politically incorrect to call somebody a racist who isn't actually a racist, because nobody actually looks into it to find out what the true intentions of the person are.  Furthermore, you hear words like sexist, homophobe and racist hundreds of times a day but how many times do you hear words like: anti-Christian bigot, manhater, or somebody who is racist against white people?  There is no politically correct vocabulary to protect these people because the political establishment is against all things traditional and these people mean nothing to them.  You have no right to insist that political correctness is fair unless you have spent time on our side of the fence.  You may think that things are good right now, but from our point of view things are horrible because you can't even talk about the problems without getting blasted with some politically correct label like "racist" that doesn't even describe your true intentions.  This is why so many people turned to Donald Trump, when he gets called a racist without actually making any racist remarks we can all relate to the abuse that he is sbujected to because we have been subjected to it as well.  Donald Trump is our way of letting you know how bad things are, those in power don't get to ignore half the population and insist that we are being treated fairly when things are so unjust.  

I'm a registered Republican.  But please, continue.  Tell me again how I don't spend time on the other side of the fence.

Voter Fraud.



Illusion said:
SpokenTruth said:

In that case, all political correctness is doing is trying to teach people not to be an asshole when discussing sensitive topics.  You can discuss illegal immigration, gay marriage, religion, terrorism, etc...without being hateful in the process.   It's when you use language that is racist that you get called a racist.  

If you want the freedom to say racists things you better be preprared to accept the fact people get call you racist.  Simple as that. You can't have freedom of speech to be racist and then tell others they don't have the freedom of speech to call you out on it.

You are also confusing political correctness with liberal policy.  Either because you're not aware of the difference or you've been raised in a home that teaches it (sadly, this works both ways on much of the problems we have world wide).  If a liberal calls you sexist for not accepting abortion, that's not political correctness.  That is the right of the left to debate your policy (just as it is the right of the, uh, right, to debate policy on the left).   Political correctness does not tell you that you cannot discussion abortion...or even hold a policy against it.  Political correctness is only about framing that disucssion in terminology and tone that isn't abrasive, insulting, disparaging or hateful.

Non-PC discussion: Only sluts get abortions.

PC discussion: Women with loose morals are more likely to seek out abortions.

Your topic is the same yet instead of sounding hateful and instigating an argument, you've opened dialog that others on both sides of the debate will be more willing to engage in.  Again, it's nothing more than framing the discussion so you don't come off as an asshole. 

You may think that political correctness provides fairness for everybody but in actuality it only provides protection for those who hold liberal values, conservatives get stomped on.  It's not politically incorrect to call somebody a racist who isn't actually a racist, because nobody actually looks into it to find out what the true intentions of the person are.  Furthermore, you hear words like sexist, homophobe and racist hundreds of times a day but how many times do you hear words like: anti-Christian bigot, manhater, or somebody who is racist against white people?  There is no politically correct vocabulary to protect these people because the political establishment is against all things traditional and these people mean nothing to them.  You have no right to insist that political correctness is fair unless you have spent time on our side of the fence.  You may think that things are good right now, but from our point of view things are horrible because you can't even talk about the problems without getting blasted with some politically correct label like "racist" that doesn't even describe your true intentions.  This is why so many people turned to Donald Trump, when he gets called a racist without actually making any racist remarks we can all relate to the abuse that he is sbujected to because we have been subjected to it as well.  Donald Trump is our way of letting you know how bad things are, those in power don't get to ignore half the population and insist that we are being treated fairly when things are so unjust.  

The reason you don't hear words like "anti-Christian bigot" very often is objectively there really aren't that many, not in a sense that's truly equivalent to racism.  I see (and personally know) a lot of people decrying the Christian establishment as sexist, but I don't see a lot of people arguing to create laws against going to church.  There's a significant difference here, which is that words like sexist, homophobic, racist are all terms which describe systemic oppression that has been ongoing for hundreds of years.

Let's say that you sincerely believe that life begins at conception.  That's great, I think you are more than welcome to that belief; no one should ever force you to violate that belief and get (or perform) an abortion, and I believe no one has to right to call you sexist for holding that belief.  But do you have the right to deprive other people from having an abortion?  How many gays do you see lobbying Congress to pass laws against Christians going to church?  In other words, does your right to hold beliefs extend so far as to grant you the power to deprive other people of their own rights?

It's at that point where it seems fair to have a discussion about institutionalized sexism/racism and oppression of women's reproductive rights. Existing laws originate from the institutions that have held historical power, and if the nature of conservatism (by your words "all things traditional") is to protect existing laws, then I think it's fair to make the claim that some of those laws are rooted in sexism/racism/homophobia (because very few people can resist the temptation to use power in self-serving ways) and that preserving them can serve to institutionalize that prejudice.  It is harder to believe that there are a similar number of existing laws that are rooted in anti-Christian movements, simply because of the comparative lack of historical power (quick: name two presidents who aren't white Christian males).

This is the thing a lot of people don't see about racism and sexism: it's not about whether you personally believe (consciously or unconsciously) that blacks are inferior to whites, but whether you support a power structure that (often indirectly, but at times overtly) disadvantages the former.  I agree it's wrong to automatically call someone sexist just cause they believe life begins at birth: when that same person wants to force women to do things as a result of that belief (a force that they only possess due to an unfair distribution of power), then maybe I can call that sexist.  I'm not judging that person's character, but his actions by that label.

I'm sorry that you feel oppressed — I don't think anyone in society should feel that way, but there's a quote that's been going around a lot recently that I've enjoyed: "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels a lot like oppression".  Please reflect upon that and decide for yourself whether you truly feel this is the same form of oppression that the "other side" feels.  I'm hoping you can see that there are some reasonable structural differences between the intolerance that stems from racism and the intolerance (you're right, it exists) that stems from political correctness.  Can we at least agree on that as a place to start from for an honest discussion?