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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Digital Foundry: Nintendo Switch CPU and GPU clock speeds revealed

zorg1000 said:
curl-6 said:

We don't know yet how much RAM is actually available for games though.

Im just going off the most recent rumors which says 3.2gb for games.

Hopefully Switch doesn't continue the Wii U tradition of a bloated OS that hogs memory.



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curl-6 said:
zorg1000 said:

Im just going off the most recent rumors which says 3.2gb for games.

Hopefully Switch doesn't continue the Wii U tradition of a bloated OS that hogs memory.

Given the spec they're apparently going for, 3.2GB is plenty. 



I never bought the excuse that Nintendo just showed a bunch of random games during that trailer and that the "real" games would look 5x better or something. I think this is a pretty good gauge on the graphics the Switch can produce:

It would just be stupid to go out of your way to debut your system with graphics purposely worse than what the system could actually produce. 

Basically I think Nintendo is fine with this level of graphics, they don't care for much better for the forseeable future. 



Soundwave said:
curl-6 said:

Hopefully Switch doesn't continue the Wii U tradition of a bloated OS that hogs memory.

Given the spec they're apparently going for, 3.2GB is plenty. 

3.2GB is plenty, but if they devote half their RAM to the OS again, that would be crappy.



spemanig said:
zorg1000 said:

Considering that 3DS+Vita will have sold over 50 million in the west, I would say you are giving quite the exaggeration.

50m for a combined two platforms in the most lucrative market in gaming over the course of almost 6 years is textbook abysmal.

But out of curiosity - how did PS360 do in the west over the course of 6 years?

Its certainly not record breaking amazing by any means but "will absolutely die in the west" is certainly an exaggeration.

Not entirely sure about PS3/360, over 100 million though.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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curl-6 said:
zorg1000 said:

Im just going off the most recent rumors which says 3.2gb for games.

Hopefully Switch doesn't continue the Wii U tradition of a bloated OS that hogs memory.

Does doing something once make it a tradition?



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
curl-6 said:

Hopefully Switch doesn't continue the Wii U tradition of a bloated OS that hogs memory.

Does doing something once make it a tradition?

Call it what you wish, but wasting 1GB on an OS that wasn't really any better than the 32MB Xbox 360 OS is a horrible move that nobody should want to see repeated with Switch.



curl-6 said:
zorg1000 said:

Does doing something once make it a tradition?

Call it what you wish, but wasting 1GB on an OS that wasn't really any better than the 32MB Xbox 360 OS is a horrible move that nobody should want to see repeated with Switch.

I didn't say it wasn't



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Sh1nn said:
So according to gaf we're looking at 150gf in portable mode and 400gf when docked.

* Memory bandwidth gets reduced by 20% so from 25GB/s to 20GB/s. (Optional.)
nVidia pegs the bandwidth gain thanks to colour compression to be around 25% for Maxwell. - So you still come out slightly ahead of where the numbers lay.

* CPU performance isn't worth mentioning. It's blatantly terrible. - Still waiting for a console company to take CPU performance seriously for once.

* GPU is the nasty part. 30.2% GPU clock reduction.
Making it 393Gflop or 786Gflop in double precision.
Mobile mode it becomes 157Gflop or 314Gflop double precision.

Welcome to the Portable Wii U. (Kidding.)

Developers will be forced to use double precision more often on the Switch than the Xbox One/Scorpio/Playstation 4/Playstation 4 Pro, complete with massive image quality hits.

And even though mobile mode is extremely limited, it should still offer better texturing, lighting, geometry etc' than the Wii U.

Obviously Nintendo was worried about battery life... And instead of just throwing a larger battery at the problem, got aggressive with clock rates instead.

Mr Puggsly said:

I'm more intrigued in what this can do in practice versus numbers.

I mean if this thing can pull off Wii U graphics on a portable gaming device, its still a very capable machine. The new Zelda game and Skyrim reflects that.

I expect lower resolutions on portable mode which is why they can bring that speed down. 540p can look fine on a screen that small for example. Vita games looked fine pushing 480p.

A full clocked Maxwell Tegra was doing last generation titles via Android at 1080P 60fps, that's your baseline.
Something with half the CPU clock, less bandwidth and only 40% of the total GPU throughput is going to have a seriously compromised experience.

But those are also last generation non-hardware optimised titles, they wouldn't be using Tegra's Tessellator or taking advantage of newer shaders for instance.

Mr Puggsly said:
Sh1nn said:
So according to gaf we're looking at 150gf in portable mode and 400gf when docked.

So docked is at par with Wii U.

Portable speed should be fine for sub-HD resolutions as I expected.

No. Far better than the Wii U.

As I have said all along the Switch will sit between the Wii U and Xbox One. This doesn't change that.

zorg1000 said:
Ya really couldn't care less about the clock speeds of this thing, they really make no difference in the long run.

They make a massive difference.

A.I won't be as complex and damanding, Physics won't be as full, particulates will be less, Alpha effects will less, Shaders will be simpler... List goes on, and that all impacts the immersiveness and believability of a world.

Volterra_90 said:
Guitarguy said:

Big time. Especially considering the form factor and price. Not to mention factoring in a large 720P screen into the equation.

Yep, basically. You get what you can get for that price and that form factor. A XboxOne powered handheld? No way, that would be just too much and really expensive.

It is entirely possible. It's just not going to happen. Obviously.

The Xbox One is using 5+ year old 28nm Graphics Core Next hardware, it wasn't even high-end, new hardware even on release.

Mobile has come a long way during that time, especially with 16nm Pascal.

bonzobanana said:
It was never going to be 600 gflops with 25.6GB/s memory bandwidth.

It has more bandwidth than the raw numbers imply.

Pyro as Bill said:

"Tegra X1 is a fully-featured HDMI 2.0 capable processor, so why is video output hobbled to HDMI 1.4 specs? What's the point of a 4K, 30Hz output?"

4K video confirmed?

The Vanilla Xbox One and Playstation 4 feature HDMI 1.4. - Pretty sure they aren't doing 4k video?

bonzobanana said:

There is no secret sauce its all pretty much out in the open. The nvidia gpu will kick well above its weight compared to wii u for simply being a better later gpu architecture with a better feature set and the whole system is running with 64bit datapaths. The wii u had a much, much weaker cpu arrangement based on 32 bit chips designed in the last century (no joke) that couldn't even muster 10,000 mips collectively. The Switch at least doubles cpu performance possibly a bit more. CPU performance is the same between portable and docked modes.

64bit vs 32bit isn't that big of a game changer. 64-bit, real 64-bit tends to consume more memory due to memory pointers being a little bigger.
Performance wise, 32bit in a few edge cases can be faster and use less power than 64bit, but that is typically less of an issue these days with chips counted in Billions of Transistors rather than only Millions.


Werix357 said:

Well if the Switch uses the Tegra X1 then I'm expecting a low retail price, not sure that I would be interested in a price north of $260AUD

This is nVidia we are talking about. They aren't cheap, they see themselves as a "Premium" brand.

There is a reason why Microsoft and Sony wen't with nVidia once and never wen't back again.

Valdath said:

I feel bad for the people who genuinely expected a PORTABLE device about 10 times as small as this one

 

 

to be about close in power.

 

I'm still getting one because i don't buy Nintendo consoles for multiplats, but some really need to chill and get real.

Allot of people weren't expecting an Xbox One in the palm of their hands. They were expecting "Close enough" or "Good enough" where the difference is perceived to be irrellevent.
With that in mind, technology has come a long way since the Xbox One's half decade old technology was first released on the market, nVidia has made great strides in efficiency.

SmileyAja said:

Though these are real dissapointing, worse than an X1 is just plain horrible, most people were expecting 500gflops at least, this is basically Wii U level performance.

It's not Wii U levels.

Aerys said:

Well its stilll thé most powerful Handhled console, à good next gen Vita

High-end Android and iOS mobile devices and even Intels Atom X7 z8700 should be able to beat it.
They are all getting last-gen ports these days as well.

Egelo said:
So in comparison tot he PS4 X1

Where does this thing stand ?

Probably 1/4th to 1/2 of the Xbox One, depending on the devices "mode" and game.

The Ram capacity is a big bonus. Hoping half of that isn't eaten up by the OS and background duties.

potato_hamster said:

PS4      - 1842 gflops
XOne   - 1311 glfops
Switch -  392 glfops (docked) / 157 gflops (undocked)

So in terms of GPU perfomance, the Switch is over 4.6x less powerful docked, and over 11.7x less powerful when undocked vs the PS4. In comparison to the X1, it's over 3.3x less powerful docked, and 8.34x less powerful when undocked.

For further comparion, the xbox 360's graphical performance was 240 gflops, the PS3 was 228, and the Wii U was 176 gflops.

You can't compare flops like that. It's blatantly inaccurate and wrong.

Tegra does more work per flop than the GPU's in the Xbox One and Playstation 4 thanks to it's Maxwell derived architecture.

bunchanumbers said:

When its not plugged in its around Wii U level. When it is plugged in it isn't even half of Xbox One. Maybe a third of the power of the Xbox One.

It will be better than the Wii U. Probably more than 2x. You should stop basing performance on flops alone.

RavenXtra said:

What are you talking about? 150 GFLOPs is around the performance of the Wii U. Wii U is 172 GFLOPs

Do you understand how flops relates to rendering a game?

Mr.GameCrazy said:

Given that it's more of a handheld console than a home console, it honestly isn't much of a surprise to me. I personally don't mind because I like Nintendo's handheld systems.

I am hoping Nintendo releases a "Stand alone" version of the switch, ditching the screen, detachable controls so people can leverage the switches game library and use it like a regular console, the hardware would also run at full speed.

JRPGfan said:

Actually yes it does.

Its easier to make chips that dont malfunktion, if they are running lower clock speeds.

299$ price might just kill the Switch's sales as a homeconsole.

Im hopeing Nintendo are able to sell this at 199$.

Half correct.

For chips that don't meet specific clock rates and power characteristics... You can just throw more voltage at the problem.
The switch being a mobile chip though... That would be counter productive, voltage has a direct relationship with power consumption and heat.

Captain_Yuri said:

Well that site also says the wiiU is running at 352 which doesn't sound right and neogaf said it was 176 after all their fact checking and etc. Also no one exactly disputed him right?

Why is this still up for debate? The Wii U is 176. It's been analaysed to death already, die shots taken, cat paws touched.

Veknoid_Outcast said:
Is this bad news? Wouldn't this mean better battery life and a lower price point, closer to $199? It's not like Nintendo needs the extra power to make great games.

The answer to that is a maybe.

If Nintendo decides to save money on cutting back on battery capacity to reduce costs, then you will not get better battery life. But you will get a lower price if they don't eat it up in profits.

Miyamotoo said:


CPU Clock


The overall performance really depends on the core configuration. An octo-core A72 setup at 1GHz would be pretty damn close to PS4's 1.6GHZ 8-core Jaguar CPU. I don't necessarily expect that, but a 4x A72 + 4x A53 @ 1GHz should certainly be able to provide "good enough" performance for ports, and wouldn't be at all unreasonable to expect.


That would be true if it was using A72.
But it's not.

It will be A57+A53 as per Tegra X1, which comes up short.
Not to mention... Not all 8 cores can be used at the same time, it is a Big.Little configuration that swaps between four slow cores and four faster cores depending on load.

Mowco said:
FP16 is half precision, PS4 PRO is 4.2TF in FP32 and 8.4TF in FP16 for example. So really you want to look at the FP32 figure as that's what everybody uses. People on neogaf seem pretty sure that it's Case 1, so 384 Gflops.


Actually. You are half correct.
FP32 is used more often on the PC and consoles as it's higher quality with higher precision.

FP16 is typically used in mobile because it's faster, uses less power even at the expense of quality.

So the Switch, if it follows the typical Mobile development paradigm... Should run with FP16 for a large proportion of titles whilst "Mobile".

Soundwave said:

It scales almost perfect too, 384 GFLOPS (docked) is just over 2x the floating point performance of the Wii U, and 1080p is just over 2x the pixels of 720p. 12.8 GB/sec (Wii U memory bandwidth) is just about half of 25GB/sec. 2x a Wii U matches up pretty much dead on, I can see Ninendo choosing these specs because it will let them run Wii U engines in 1080p no fuss and 720p in portable mode. Pretty much perfect for their needs. 

Performance doesn't always scale like that.
Even though 1080P is just over double 720P's pixel count... Some Architectures will only see relatively small performance penalty.
And some may be hit with a performance penalty of 5x or more.

Where does Tegra fall into that? Well. You can't just take raw numbers and compare it to the Wii U anyway, they are vastly different hardware, but the Tegra should be able to handle higher resolutions better than the Wii U due to a myriad of reasons.

The Wii U also has eDRAM, which further muddies everything up.

Soundwave said:

Unfortunately there are battery life issues for a hybrid set up like this. You just can't make the chip as powerful as whatever. It has to run on battery power.

It is a good thing it is using a mobile chip designed to run on battery power.

Nintendo should have wen't with a more efficient and newer SOC.

zorg1000 said:

Wouldnt undocked mode still surpass Wii U? I mean this is only taking GPU into consideration while the CPU should be a pretty sizable improvement over Wii U and the rumors are saying Switch has over 3x as much usable RAM than Wii U.

Without a doubt, mobile mode will beat the Wii U.

Soundwave said:

Nintendo can violate the laws of thermal physics if they choose to? 

An XBox One at even the newest cutting edge 16nm FinFET process (which consumes way less electricity) still consumes like 60-70 watts electricity. 

The upper limit for a portable device is 10 watts total, and even that is probably pushing it, it's likely more like 8 watts.

The Tegra X1 Maxwell is a 20nm chip too, so it's not even as energy efficient as the XBox One is. 

It's simply impossible to have XBox One level performance in a device under these constraints today. 

There is more to energy efficieny than just fabrication node.

Graphics Core Next is far less efficient than Maxwell or Pascal, even when Graphics Core Next has been shrunk down to 16/14nm... This is why Polaris is such a dud, it cannot compete with nVidia's superior performance per watt.

Soundwave said:

"Able to get multiplats" .... how do you know that is "easy"? It was fun to speculate, but it may well be that it's very difficult to get the performance you are talking about in a portable device.

A Tegra Shield with a full clocked 20nm Tegra X1 consumes almost 20 watts at full tilt (and this chip is well below an XBox One in performance as is), that is simply unworkable in a portable state. 

That would kill even a fairly large 5000-6000 MaH battery in like 1 1/2 hours. What you're asking for performance wise I simply don't think is possible. 

My tablet has a 10,000 MaH battery, screen plays a massive part in power consumption, most 720P panels will have a power efficiency edge over higher resolution displays.

The fact is, they could have gone with a newer SoC. - nVidia doesn't build these chips overnight, they knew years in advance.

Plus, Nintendo/nVidia did not need to get as aggressive with clocks as they did, and still had good power consumption with more aggressive binning.
Which I think is ultimately the crux of the issue. People wanted more, Nintendo didn't deliver.

spemanig said:

Handhelds are a different market. It's only competition was the Vita. Switch is not "more of a handheld" and, like it or not, is competing with PS4/XBO. That's how it's being marketed, that's likely how its software will be priced, and that's how the mass market are going to make their purchasing decisions with regards to it.

Things are a little different these days.
The 3DS and Vita aren't just competing with themselves, they are now competing with iOS and Android.
It wouldn't be a terrible argument to state that the switch is competing with Vita/3DS/iOS/Android/Xbox One/Playstation 4 and other derivatives.

curl-6 said:

In the dock, sure, but in all likelihood, the only boost it get from docking in most games is resolution and, in some GPU-bound games, a more stable framerate.

Lighting, shading, textures, effects, geometry, etc, will all still be in the Wii U's ballpark.

Geometry should be a big step up. nVidia's Polymorph engine should be vastly superior to the Wii U's Tessellator. (Either full or Truform based.)
Texturing should be a massive leap, thanks to the increase in DRAM.

Lighting, Shading and other effects can be a hit or miss, depending on precision used.

******

All in all I think we can confidently continue to say that the Switch is between the Wii U and Xbox One. (Like I have said all along.)

Whether it gets ports or not is likely entirely dependent on how successfull the device will be, if it sells a ton of units, it's hard for business's to ignore the sound of money being spent.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
 

 

zorg1000 said:
Ya really couldn't care less about the clock speeds of this thing, they really make no difference in the long run.

They make a massive difference.

A.I won't be as complex and damanding, Physics won't be as full, particulates will be less, Alpha effects will less, Shaders will be simpler... List goes on, and that all impacts the immersiveness and believability of a world.


I mean in terms of support the system recieves.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.