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Forums - Gaming - FFXV's Sales In Japan: It Is Time For Japanese Devs To Support Switch?

vivster on 07 December 2016

We should wait with the panic until we see DQXI numbers.



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Soundwave on 07 December 2016
GProgrammer said:
Wasn't the best selling Monster Hunter game on Sony hardware?
Releasing the Monster Hunter games on Nintendo hardware, caused the numbers to drop, I'm sure Soundwave agrees

Monster Hunter games still sell incredibly well on the 3DS and have even sold more in the West since going on Nintendo platforms. 

It doesn't really matter in any case because what's the alternative? Vita? The system the 3DS has outsold 4:1? If anything if Capcom is dumb enough to think about ditching Nintendo for future Monster Hunter ... they probably are having a real, hard sobering wake up call looking at these FFXV numbers. They better get their ass behind the Switch because if Monster Hunter goes, I don't know what will be left of Capcom, but I don't think it will be pretty. 

Those 2-3 million they get from 3DS Monster Hunter games every year or two like clockwork has been paying their bills. 

Switch is going to outsell the PS4 in Japan. Probably quickly at that. It's time for Japanese developers to accept the cold hard truth. They need to work with Nintendo and support Switch like it's a Super Famicom. There is no other way forward for the Japanese game industry. 



small44 on 07 December 2016

Square Enix is the only responsable of the Final Fantasy bad sale.



PS4 - over 100 millions let's say 120m
Xbox One - 70m
Wii U - 25m

Vita - 15m if it will not get Final Fantasy Kingdoms Heart and Monster Hunter 20m otherwise
3DS - 80m

Alkibiádēs on 07 December 2016

People don't seem to be able to accept the truth here. Yes, Final Fantasy XV bombed hard in Japan. The game had a very long development cycle and must have cost a lot of money to make.

If Japanese developers had any sense of self-preservation they would switch to Nintendo. The best selling Dragon Quest game came out on the DS and not the more powerful PSP or PS3. A game doesn't need to be on a powerful console for it to sell a lot or be good. Pokémon Red and Blue and Pokémon Gold and Silver offer more content than 99% of the modern games. Pokémon Sun and Moon only took around 3 years to develop (with part of the team making a remake of Ruby and Sapphire as well) and it absolutely destroyed Final Fantasy XV in sales. The budget of Pokémon Sun and Moon will have been only a fraction of Final Fantasy XV.

Square Enix is only hurting themselves by releasing games exclusively on the PS4 (and the XBONE). Kingdom Hearts 3 is another game that is taking forever to develop and I'm pretty sure Dragon Quest XI will see many delays as well because of the PS4 version. I can say the same for Capcom. Street Fighter V was a total flop. Bandai Namco meanwhile worked together with Nintendo and made Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS (best selling in the franchise) and Pokken Tournament (surprisingly outsold Street Fighter V on the PS4). Koei Tecmo made Hyrule Warriors which was one of the most successful Dynasty Warrior games in years.

The 3DS should have gotten a mainline Final Fantasy game, but it didn't and only game companies can be that stupid to ignore such a large market segment.

(Japanese) developers have always put blind faith in Playstation consoles, it's time they do the same for the Switch.
And why on earth is Square Enix supporting Microsoft more than Nintendo? Their anti-Nintendo bias will hit them hard in the future if they don't watch out. We get it Square, you don't like cartridges, get over it because your most famous franchise is getting trashed by "the guys who still make cartridge games". Oh the irony.

The advantages are all there:

- Less competition due to absence of games made by Western developers.

- Huge market share in Japan, their home country and the main demographic of most of their games (relative to the country size).

- Weaker hardware and thus cheaper development costs and faster development cycles.

- Both mobile and home console combined.



"The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" - Thoukydides

Soundwave on 07 December 2016
Hiku said:
Soundwave said:

Seriously that opening for FFXV is ... a disaster. Once one of the top franchises in Japan now can't even hit 700k its opening week? There's no spinning how devastating this is. This one proud franchise used to clear 2 million in its first week without breaking a sweat there.

"Eurogamer also notes that the game was the most downloaded game on launch day for any title released in Japan"
I don't know what that amounts to, and perhaps they meant only PS4, but it sounds like it may very well be closer to 1 million than 700k. Keep in mind that Final Fantasy XIII and older games never offered a digital version on Day 1. Additionally, Square Enix said they've shipped 5 million units worldwide (and shipments are also based on pre-order numbers, etc), which is a record for the series. So I think it's very premature to call doom and gloom.
Definitely not fair to compare it to the golden days of PS1. A lot of franchises, besides Pokemon, are selling significantly lower in Japan these days.

I think Square-Enix hitching their wagon to Sony has caught up to them. Why has Nintendo never been given a main line Final Fantasy game despite having the best selling system in Japan for each of the last two generations by a large margin? Bet they are counting their lucky stars Dragon Quest XI will be on 3DS and Switch too, otherwise they would be in big, big trouble with Dragon Quest as well.

You mean why has a Nintendo home console never (or barely ever) been given a mainline Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, Devil May Cry, Resident Evil, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Megaman X, Dynasty Warriors, Tales of, Dragon Quest, Yakuza, Castlevania, Metal Gear Solid, etc, and the list goes on.

Basically every single major Japanese developer avoids Nintendo's home consoles with their mainline titles, and either put none of them on Nintendo's home console, or very few of them. Instead they shift their focus on Nintendo's portable systems.

They need to get over their biases or whatever the reason is of the last 20 years and get over it. It's not 1998 anymore. This is 2016 now and things have changed big time.

There's no bias. If there ever was a wedge between Nintendo and Square, it's obviously long gone. Because they've put out a lot of great titles on Nintendo's handheld. Like I said, it's pretty much every single major Japanese developer.

How many traditional Resident Evil games have appeared on a Nintendo home console since N64? - 4/10
Mainline Street Fighter? - 0/7
Metal Gear Solid? 1/5 (1/6 if you consider Peace Walker mainline)
Devil May Cry? - 0/5
Dynasty Warriors? - 0/8. (They got a few spinoffs though)
Megaman X? - 0/5
Tales of? - 3/15
Tekken? 1/8
Yakuza? 0/7
Persona? 0/5
Shin Megami Tensei? 0/2

So this is not something unique to Square Enix by any stretch of the imagination. It's everyone.



Some times some of them put a some of their mainline games on Nintendo consoles. But that's the very rare exception rather than the rule. And usually it's for the hyper successful Wii, unless its a paid exclusive like Resident Evil 4 and Tales of Symphonia. It's not an issue of bias, because many of these franchises either started on Nintendo's home consoles, and/or still appear on Nintendo's handhelds. The issue is that since N64, Nintendo keep making hardware that no one other than Nintendo want to put most of their big titles on. And the Switch seems to be no different so far.

Capcom just showed Marvel vs Capcom Infinite. It was not announced for Switch. Surprise?
It's not a coincidence that this has happened for decades among all developers. So don't single out Square, who at least have put more quality titles on Gameboy/DS/3DS than many of the other companies I mentioned.

It's time for the Japanese community to support Nintendo again unless they want to gauruntee their own destruction. Street Fighter V bombing on PS4 was bad enough, this needs to be a huge wake up call. The traditional home only console in Japan is dead, it's time to rally around the portable/home Switch.

If you've paid any attention to Street Fighter V, you'll see that it has little to do with PS4, as it sold way worse on PC, and more to do with them releasing the game in an unfinished state, and getting hammered for it by critics and gamers alike. Their reason for doing so was to get it out in time for their Capcom Pro Tour. The hardcore Street Fighter fans didn't seem to mind much, because they had what they needed the most. Training mode and Online play. But the casual audiance did mind. Street Fighter 4 had a long life cycle though, and Capcom plan on updating SFV with content until at least 2020.

Japanese developers better hope Switch does well in Japan, because it's curtains to the traditional  Japanese game industry if it does not take off. It's going to go smartphone only and you're going to see Dragon Quest XII and Final Fantasy games launching on mobile if Switch does not succeed.

I don't think Switch is the answer. Wii was extremely successful, and yet the same happened there. Most developers avoided putting their main big tittles on the Wii, with few exceptions, and instead made some "specialized" titles suiting the Wii. Now if you look at interviews with Japanese developers, you'll see a very familiar pattern. They say they want to make "different" games for the Switch.

Don't expect Final Fantasy VII Remake on Switch unless it's at least as powerful as PS4. (Or if the game gets announced for Xbox One, then as powerful as Xbox will probably do.) They want to make that game the best they can, without compromise. Downgrading the game to suit a console that may not even have Gen 8 capability may not be the way they want to do it.

 

This is exactly the type of thinking that's going to kill the Japanese market. Japanese gamers don't give a crap about 4K or any that stuff any way. I don't even think Japanese gamers give two shits really about 720p versus 1080p. 

If DQXI can run on Switch, if Dark Souls III can run on Switch, then Final Fantasy VII damn well should be able to run on Switch. And Final Fantasy XVI even beyond that. 

No one gives a shit (in Japan anyway) if some assets are compromised a bit. Hell back in the day we played Street Fighter II for hours on end on Super NES/SFC ... and that was like what? 1/4 the power of the arcade cabinet? 

Every Japanese developer needs to wake the fuck up or they their precious creative fancies and fetishes are going to be working on nothing but shitty ass mobile games in a 3-4 years because that's all their bosses are going to pay them to do. Or they can go grovelling to Kickstarter to get their ideas greenlight on a shoe string budget with a team of 10 people. 



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StarOcean on 07 December 2016

FF, as of the past few entries has been increasingly liked by the west. I dont think SE cares what Japan thinks of the game



Soundwave on 07 December 2016
StarOcean said:
FF, as of the past few entries has been increasingly liked by the west. I dont think SE cares what Japan thinks of the game

/Donald Trump: "Wrong"

This is the excuse movie studios say when a movie badly underperforms their expectations in the US.

Under 900k opening in Japan for a Final Fantasy game is like a main line Star Wars opening to only $30-$40 million in the US. That would be a disaster. Square-Enix execs are gutted by this. No doubt about it, it will definitely also impact the budget of Final Fantasy XVI, I have little doubt. 

The days of Square's dev team getting any amount of money and time to make a Final Fantasy game are likely coming to an end. 



Swordmasterman on 07 December 2016
Soundwave said:
RJ_Sizzle said:

Uh, a port to Switch is something that's feasable if it takes off. Not just dropping support for a platform with 50 million units out there with games that still have international appeal outside of Japan. To solely commit to a system that's following up the biggest failure Nintendo's had in the home console market to date. This is a Nintendo thread alright. 

Why not? Sony gets the benefit of the doubt every time, FFXV, KHIII, DQXI were all announced for it before it really sold big, it doesn't really even deserve a Dragon Quest game based on its sales in Japan. And that's fine, but would it kill Japanese developers to even give Ninendo the benefit of the doubt *one fucking time*? Even when it's their own future that depends on it?

Nintendo shouldn't be the one jumping through hoops here trying to impress Japanese developers like a dog when they've had the two best selling platforms in Japan for the last decade easily. 

Nintendo should finally be given some benefit of the doubt, they are the only one in Japan that has any chance of selling 20 million units. If Switch is reasonably powered, it's time for Square to swallow their pride and admit they need Nintendo to build them a healthy traditional gaming base in Japan or the future of many of their key IP is in serious trouble. 

 

If you take away the Handhelds. The Wii only had 1.5-2 millions of advantage over the PS3, the PS4 has 1.5-2 millions of advantage over the Wii U.

Why would a console that sold almost 4 millions in 2-2.5 years not deserve a Dragon Quest game when it is  better than Nintendo did with the Gamecube and the 64 ?



Soundwave on 07 December 2016
Swordmasterman said:
Soundwave said:

Why not? Sony gets the benefit of the doubt every time, FFXV, KHIII, DQXI were all announced for it before it really sold big, it doesn't really even deserve a Dragon Quest game based on its sales in Japan. And that's fine, but would it kill Japanese developers to even give Ninendo the benefit of the doubt *one fucking time*? Even when it's their own future that depends on it?

Nintendo shouldn't be the one jumping through hoops here trying to impress Japanese developers like a dog when they've had the two best selling platforms in Japan for the last decade easily. 

Nintendo should finally be given some benefit of the doubt, they are the only one in Japan that has any chance of selling 20 million units. If Switch is reasonably powered, it's time for Square to swallow their pride and admit they need Nintendo to build them a healthy traditional gaming base in Japan or the future of many of their key IP is in serious trouble. 

 

If you take away the Handhelds. The Wii only had 1.5-2 millions of advantage over the PS3, the PS4 has 1.5-2 millions of advantage over the Wii U.

Why would a console that sold almost 4 millions in 2-2.5 years not deserve a Dragon Quest game when it is  better than Nintendo did with the Gamecube and the 64 ?

PS4 hasn't done shit in Japan to deserve a Dragon Quest game. That belongs to the market leader, Enix has said this in the past. 3DS is the current market leader, and Switch will be the future market leader. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm happy PS4 owners get to enjoy the game. That said would it kill Square to give Nintendo the same benefit of the doubt? Final Fantasy VII Remake and XV and XVI and Kingdom Hearts III should be on Switch. Fair is fair. 

It's for their own damn benefit anyway, having to "argue" that Japanese developers should support the Switch is like having to argue with a man who thinks shooting himself in the head is a good idea. Nintendo is going to have to save these stubborn developers from themselves. 

We need a strong, healthy traditional game platform in Japan. Nintendo is the only one that can provide it. Time to party like it's 1990 and support that thing like it's Super Famicom. 



Soundwave on 07 December 2016
Hiku said:
Soundwave said:

This is exactly the type of thinking that's going to kill the Japanese market. Japanese gamers don't give a crap about 4K or any that stuff any way. I don't even think Japanese gamers give two shits really about 720p versus 1080p. 

If DQXI can run on Switch, if Dark Souls III can run on Switch, then Final Fantasy VII damn well should be able to run on Switch. And Final Fantasy XVI even beyond that. 

No one gives a shit (in Japan anyway) if some assets are compromised a bit. Hell back in the day we played Street Fighter II for hours on end on Super NES/SFC ... and that was like what? 1/4 the power of the arcade cabinet? 

Every Japanese developer needs to wake the fuck up or they their precious creative fancies and fetishes are going to be working on nothing but shitty ass mobile games in a 3-4 years because that's all their bosses are going to pay them to do. Or they can go grovelling to Kickstarter to get their ideas greenlight on a shoe string budget with a team of 10 people. 

It's not like I don't want them to make games for Nintendo's home console, but doesn't it seem like the ball is in Nintendo's court? Surely Nintendo got the message loud and clear now over the past 20 years. The Japanese developers show them love on their handhelds, but rarely ever grace their home console with a big title since SNES. I don't know where exactly they've gathered their data in order to come to the conclusion that it will impact their finances negatively if they make the games for Nintendo's home consoles, but whatever it is, it's a convicion they all share unanimously, to various degrees.

Dragon Quest XI is a game seemingly without highly detailed textures. More colorful with simple plain textures, like Zelda Breath of the Wild. Final Fantasy VII is about as opposite of that as you can get. We don't know the exact specs of Switch, but just looking at it, it's hard to imagine it being close to Xbox One.
If you consider the size of PS4 Slim and Xbox One Slim, that's about the smallest form factor they were able to create. Switch is about 1/6 of their size, if you detatch the controllers? And it includes a monitor. If that thing can run something like FF7 or Red Dead Redemption 2 without overheating or exploding like Galaxy Note 7, I'd be very surprised and impressed. My last hope for the Switch is that it is close to XBO or PS4 in specs. It's not impossible that Nvidia have created something a lot more effective than what's in the PS4/XBO. But I'm not exactly counting on it.

That said, the fact that Switch seems to be Nintendo's next portable system as well, means it likely will get a lot of third party Japanese support. But I also think they will use the Switch to make the kind of lower budget games they've made for 3DS in the past. If they'll put their biggest console titles on Switch, that's the question. But I think the ball is in Nintendo's court there.

Here's the Unreal 4 Elemental Demo running on PS4 GPU versus a Tegra X1. 

And note this is an unfair comparison in some ways because the Tegra X1 footage looks washed out because it's recorded off a screen from a cell phone. Also Nintendo is reportedly using a Tegra X2-variant which would be a decent chunk better than this X1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XzIZWO1qdg

Now, sure the PS4 version looks better ... but it's not like Tegra X1 version is some thing unrecoginizable. 

Developers need to get over this shit. Japan does not give a crap about your 4K and HDR and high resolution mip mapped flippity flops. Back in the day games would be ported from arcade machines 10-15x more powerful than the consoles they ran on. 

If Dark Souls III can run on a Switch, then just about anything on a PS4 should be able to acceptly run on a Switch. Sure it might have to be 720p (docked mode) instead of 900-1080p. Sure maybe you can't see the pubic hair on a ogre's nut sack as clearly as you can on a PS4 version of the game. No one in Japan cares. This is the gaming equivalent of "first world problems".  

It's time for developers to meet Nintendo half way here. Running off or using any kind of hardware difference to say "nope, you don't get a port" is an option that pretty soon is not going to be an option for Japanese developers. Because there's going to be no traditional Japanese game market left if they keep that stubborn and stupid attitude.