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Forums - Politics - Live Updates for 2016 USA Election

 

Who are you voting for?

Hillary Clinton 167 27.93%
 
Donald Trump 185 30.94%
 
Gary Johnson 23 3.85%
 
Jill Stein 21 3.51%
 
Can't vote not old enough 11 1.84%
 
Can't vote out of country 191 31.94%
 
Total:598
Zkuq said:
Slimebeast said:

Bitter much?

You know very well that the analysis of these newspapers and politicians didn't have anything to do with how the popular vote turned out.

All parliamentary democracies have systems where you can lose even if you got the majority popular vote, including Sweden and Finland.

I'm not arguing about the result. I'm not even bitter, just a bit disappointed and worried, and quite amused. The result speak for themselves, and under the current system, Trump is clearly the winner without doubt. I didn't event say my opinion about the current system. All I pointed out was that your choice of words was very poor, because you're talking about pissing on democracy, when in fact the majority voted for Clinton. That's not a take on the system, I simply pointed out that it's not as black and white as you make it out be. If Trump ends up winning the popular vote in the end, I'm fine with it, and your comment is more justified, but I don't think the final results are in yet.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to point of how incorrect most analyses were. They were reasonable predictions, they were wrong, and they need to be improved or they'll lose some of their relevance (just like they should if they're not accurate enough).

And just for the record, I think the voting system is stupid. It's stupid in the US, it's stupid here in Finland, and if it's the same in Sweden, then it's stupid there as well. I don't even care about who would benefit from changing the system. The system has some basis in cases where regional representation should be somehow guaranteed (although I still think it's unjust), but there's pretty much no reason to have such a system for a presidential election. I also think election thresholds suck, and they're an extremely anti-democratic practice.

But in the context of our media analysis the popular vote played no role. You're bringing up an enitrely different topic. In our media we're having the same discussion as we had after Brexit. Media simply saying that the people chose wrong (not just in Sweden but all over Europe media is condemning the election result). Which to me is pissing on the will of the people and on democracy, at least in the way it's portrayed here. Sickening really.

EDIT: There seems to be a misunderstanding. By "analysis", I'm only talking about the post-election analysis by European media. I'm not talking about how the pre-election polls tended to underestimate Trump.



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Slimebeast said:
LurkerJ said:

Isn't this kinda stupid though? In a way, it means some vote have more weight to them than others. I am not comfortable with that.

Of course it is stupid, and historically it has always favored the bigger, established parties against the up and coming ones.

It isn't perfect (mainly the number of electoral votes is due for a revisit), but it exists for a reason.  The Presidential Election is meant to reflect the will of the States, not just the will of the masses, so that a handful of states can't override the wishes of all the others.  The United States was originally designed to have a balance between Federal and State powers and interests, this is part of that philosophy.  I mean, as the founding fathers put it, we are "a democracy within a republic, a sovreign nation of many sovreign states," we are NOT a straight democracy.



Nymeria said:
Vote Totals for Two Major Party Candidates in Recent Elections

2000
George W. Bush - 50,456,062
Albert Gore - 50,996,582

Total - 101,452,644


2016 (99% of votes counted)
Donald Trump - 59,218,283
Hillary Clinton - 59,405,663

Total - 118,623,946

Be more interested with the inclusion of the third party votes in 2000 and 2016.



RolStoppable said:
S.Peelman said:
So I've been looking at the maps and while I kind of get how it works, I noticed that the electoral votes in Maine are distributed between candidates (Clinton 3, Trump 1) instead of everything to the winner. So what's that about?

Almost all states have a winner-takes-it-all system, so the candidate with the most votes will get all of the electoral votes of that state. Maine is one of only a couple of exceptions who assign electoral votes relative to the attained percentages during the election.

Thanks, figured it would be something like that. Strange though, one would expect it to be the same nationwide.



sethnintendo said:

I just want to say fuck the electoral college and I'm never voting again. If your state goes against you then your vote doesn't count.  Don't tell me my vote counts when it doesn't.

Fuck the democrats and republicans.  USA is void of any good leaders.

People not voting is what got us into this mess in the first place.



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Slimebeast said:
Zkuq said:

I'm not arguing about the result. I'm not even bitter, just a bit disappointed and worried, and quite amused. The result speak for themselves, and under the current system, Trump is clearly the winner without doubt. I didn't event say my opinion about the current system. All I pointed out was that your choice of words was very poor, because you're talking about pissing on democracy, when in fact the majority voted for Clinton. That's not a take on the system, I simply pointed out that it's not as black and white as you make it out be. If Trump ends up winning the popular vote in the end, I'm fine with it, and your comment is more justified, but I don't think the final results are in yet.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to point of how incorrect most analyses were. They were reasonable predictions, they were wrong, and they need to be improved or they'll lose some of their relevance (just like they should if they're not accurate enough).

And just for the record, I think the voting system is stupid. It's stupid in the US, it's stupid here in Finland, and if it's the same in Sweden, then it's stupid there as well. I don't even care about who would benefit from changing the system. The system has some basis in cases where regional representation should be somehow guaranteed (although I still think it's unjust), but there's pretty much no reason to have such a system for a presidential election. I also think election thresholds suck, and they're an extremely anti-democratic practice.

But in the context of our media analysis the popular vote played no role. You're bringing up an enitrely different topic. In our media we're having the same discussion as we had after Brexit. Media simply saying that the people chose wrong. Which to me is pissing on the will of the people and on democracy, at least in the way it's portrayed here. Sickening really.

Ah, I think I see your point now. I kind of agree with you, and at the same time I don't. It's not nice when it's against your opinion, but I think media has the responsibility to not just mindlessly report everything they learn. Media have the right to express opinions as well. One such opinion is that the people voted incorrectly, if that opinion is given a reasonable explanation. It can be done reasonably, but if it gets out of hand, it's obviously bad. I haven't personally noticed things getting out of hand, but then again, I have chosen to follow only media that reports things fairly reasonably. Your experience could well be different.

EDIT: I noticed your edit after posting this, but I got it already! Not initially, but for this post I did. ^^



vivster said:
sethnintendo said:

I just want to say fuck the electoral college and I'm never voting again. If your state goes against you then your vote doesn't count.  Don't tell me my vote counts when it doesn't.

Fuck the democrats and republicans.  USA is void of any good leaders.

People not voting is what got us into this mess in the first place.

I'm not voting till the electoral college is gone.

Been a long time hater of the electoral college since 2000.

Here is a thread I made from 2011 where I talk shit about it.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=128111&page=1

wow actually... I was really mean spirited in the first point of thread not sure if I should have linked that...



sethnintendo said:
Nymeria said:
Vote Totals for Two Major Party Candidates in Recent Elections

2000
George W. Bush - 50,456,062
Albert Gore - 50,996,582

Total - 101,452,644


2016 (99% of votes counted)
Donald Trump - 59,218,283
Hillary Clinton - 59,405,663

Total - 118,623,946

Be more interested with the inclusion of the third party votes in 2000 and 2016.

 

Expanded to top four

2000

George W. Bush - 50,462,412
Albert Gore - 51,009,810
Ralph Nader - 2,883,443
 Patrick Buchanan - 449,181

2016

Donald Trump - 59,245,678
Hillary Clinton - 59,440,178
Gary Johnson - 4,030,801
Jill Stein - 1,203,185

Johnson and Stein finished well ahead of Nader and Buchanan



RolStoppable said:
Volterra_90 said:

In Spain it can happen. There were cases of parties without the 50% of the popular vote taking more than the 50% of the parliament. One person, one vote doesn't happen, I don't know about Germany or Austria tbh.

That isn't an example of a loss despite getting the majority of the popular vote, unless another party got a bigger share of the votes. Your example sounds more like tiny minorities who didn't clear a specified percentage threshold (I think virtually all democratic countries have that, sitting anywhere between 3-5%) getting their votes wiped, so they got no seats in the parliament; resulting from that, a less than 50% share of the original votes turned into a greater than 50% share on the remaining votes for the party who received the most votes.

Maybe that wasn't a good example, true. Nevertheless, the latest elections, a party took one million votes and had two seats on the parliament, while another one with a quarter of that took 8. So that doesn't add up very well. If a party has strong support in one region (there are 17 in Spain) but has no support in the other 16, it could be better than having a somewhat strong support in all the regions. Which is not fair at all imo. 



Zkuq said:
Slimebeast said:

But in the context of our media analysis the popular vote played no role. You're bringing up an enitrely different topic. In our media we're having the same discussion as we had after Brexit. Media simply saying that the people chose wrong. Which to me is pissing on the will of the people and on democracy, at least in the way it's portrayed here. Sickening really.

Ah, I think I see your point now. I kind of agree with you, and at the same time I don't. It's not nice when it's against your opinion, but I think media has the responsibility to not just mindlessly report everything they learn. Media have the right to express opinions as well. One such opinion is that the people voted incorrectly, if that opinion is given a reasonable explanation. It can be done reasonably, but if it gets out of hand, it's obviously bad. I haven't personally noticed things getting out of hand, but then again, I have chosen to follow only media that reports things fairly reasonably. Your experience could well be different.

EDIT: I noticed your edit after posting this, but I got it already! Not initially, but for this post I did. ^^

About media's role, I obviously don't see it black and white, that their only role is to just mindlessly report what happens lol. There's different roles, even different parties or other interests who stand behind different media outlets, and even within a media outlet they usually organize it in a certain way where subjective opinion may be expressed in one place while "mindless reporting" is expressed in another.

It's a huge discussion and there's no room for it here, but in short; I am not happy about the role and behaviour of mainstream media in general.