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Forums - Politics Discussion - Abortion & Politics: the basics

Danman27 said:
My problem with the current debate is the fact that it's not really a debate, and that's because it seems that many of the vocal people on either side completely fail to see the opposing side's argument. I'm a college student, and I'm actually afraid to say that I'm pro-life because I know I'm probably going to get labelled as a misogynist, bigot, who just wants to limit women's freedom. And on the other side, many pro-life people think that a pro-choice person is just a baby killer because being pregnant is an inconvenience. Both are incredibly wrong. I'm not pro-life because I think woman shouldn't be able to do what they want with their bodies, I just believe that ending a human life is wrong unless it's necessary. Most prochoice people simply don't see it as a human life yet, and that's why they don't see it as a big deal. The problem is that we won't reach a compromise until people can actually have a civilized discussion about the issue.

That's not a problem.  This is a situation where there is no need and no room for compromise.  

What human life is is up for debate.  I see people in this thread suggesting that any human cell is human life, but that leads is an obvious oversimplification.  Human cells die every second, and we allow all kinds of medical procedures that kill cells.  You're allowed to kill your own cells in all kinds of ways, and you're even allowed to kill the cells of others in many circumstances.  

The simple fact is that we don't have an answer.  As a matter of practicality, we have to set some limitations.  Certainly we have to protect the fetus once it is outside, with continuous brain activity, and subject to external threats.  We also need to have some sort of restriction as to when a fetus can be aborted, because it obviously doesn't suddenly switch alive the moment it is born.  But, the best we can do is lines in the sand.  We're never going to have a magican moment when a ball a cells qualifies as a human.  So, we leave the decisions in the gray area to the people directly involved in any case, particularly the woman who will be carrying the child.

It's not that I necessarily disagree with your opinion, think it's wrong, evil, or whatever.  It's just that your opinion (or anybody else's) is absolutely irrelevant to any pregnancies that do not involve you, and should have no bearing on any legislation. 



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JWeinCom said:
Danman27 said:
My problem with the current debate is the fact that it's not really a debate, and that's because it seems that many of the vocal people on either side completely fail to see the opposing side's argument. I'm a college student, and I'm actually afraid to say that I'm pro-life because I know I'm probably going to get labelled as a misogynist, bigot, who just wants to limit women's freedom. And on the other side, many pro-life people think that a pro-choice person is just a baby killer because being pregnant is an inconvenience. Both are incredibly wrong. I'm not pro-life because I think woman shouldn't be able to do what they want with their bodies, I just believe that ending a human life is wrong unless it's necessary. Most prochoice people simply don't see it as a human life yet, and that's why they don't see it as a big deal. The problem is that we won't reach a compromise until people can actually have a civilized discussion about the issue.

That's not a problem.  This is a situation where there is no need and no room for compromise.  

What human life is is up for debate.  I see people in this thread suggesting that any human cell is human life, but that leads is an obvious oversimplification.  Human cells die every second, and we allow all kinds of medical procedures that kill cells.  You're allowed to kill your own cells in all kinds of ways, and you're even allowed to kill the cells of others in many circumstances.  

The simple fact is that we don't have an answer.  As a matter of practicality, we have to set some limitations.  Certainly we have to protect the fetus once it is outside, with continuous brain activity, and subject to external threats.  We also need to have some sort of restriction as to when a fetus can be aborted, because it obviously doesn't suddenly switch alive the moment it is born.  But, the best we can do is lines in the sand.  We're never going to have a magican moment when a ball a cells qualifies as a human.  So, we leave the decisions in the gray area to the people directly involved in any case, particularly the woman who will be carrying the child.

It's not that I necessarily disagree with your opinion, think it's wrong, evil, or whatever.  It's just that your opinion (or anybody else's) is absolutely irrelevant to any pregnancies that do not involve you, and should have no bearing on any legislation. 

The problem with that though, is that ending a human life isn't ok, even if it doesn't really affect me. I agree that there should probably be a period of time where a pregnancy can be aborted, but the current line we've drawn is way too late in the pregnancy. I guess pro-life isn't the best way to describe my opinion, but then again, I don't think that many people are COMPLETELY at either end of the spectrum. 



Danman27 said:

The problem with that though, is that ending a human life isn't ok, even if it doesn't really affect me. I agree that there should probably be a period of time where a pregnancy can be aborted, but the current line we've drawn is way too late in the pregnancy. I guess pro-life isn't the best way to describe my opinion, but then again, I don't think that many people are COMPLETELY at either end of the spectrum. 

It is not your decision whether or not a fetus is a person.  It's not a topic you, or I for that matter, have any special knowledge or authority on, so your opinion is not relevant to the situation.  You're perfectly entitled to express your opinion, but there is no reason anybody should be forced to consider it.



Danman27 said:
My problem with the current debate is the fact that it's not really a debate, and that's because it seems that many of the vocal people on either side completely fail to see the opposing side's argument. I'm a college student, and I'm actually afraid to say that I'm pro-life because I know I'm probably going to get labelled as a misogynist, bigot, who just wants to limit women's freedom. And on the other side, many pro-life people think that a pro-choice person is just a baby killer because being pregnant is an inconvenience. Both are incredibly wrong. I'm not pro-life because I think woman shouldn't be able to do what they want with their bodies, I just believe that ending a human life is wrong unless it's necessary. Most prochoice people simply don't see it as a human life yet, and that's why they don't see it as a big deal. The problem is that we won't reach a compromise until people can actually have a civilized discussion about the issue.

I thought so too, until I saw the responses here!  I can't say I agree with the logic.  Performing triage on people's very lives is not something that I think should be done outside of a crisis situation, which I don't think most of these pregnancies qualify as.  Perhaps they see the lives of unborn people as much less valuable. 



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SuaveSocialist said:
Medically speaking, there is no question of its humanity--the notion of personhood is besides the point. Whatever criteria of personhood you believe an early-stage human lacks, there are individuals lacking those same traits well after birth.

Lacking brain activity?  I support the ability to take brain dead people off of life support as well. 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Final-Fan said:

I thought so too, until I saw the responses here!  I can't say I agree with the logic.  Performing triage on people's very lives is not something that I think should be done outside of a crisis situation, which I don't think most of these pregnancies qualify as.  Perhaps they see the lives of unborn people as much less valuable. 

There is a different between human life and a person.  



Final-Fan said:
SuaveSocialist said:
Medically speaking, there is no question of its humanity--the notion of personhood is besides the point. Whatever criteria of personhood you believe an early-stage human lacks, there are individuals lacking those same traits well after birth.

Lacking brain activity?  I support the ability to take brain dead people off of life support as well. 

Agreed; if the patient has no documented wishes to be on life support, the decision should fall upon the family--NOT the State.



JWeinCom said:
Final-Fan said:

I thought so too, until I saw the responses here!  I can't say I agree with the logic.  Performing triage on people's very lives is not something that I think should be done outside of a crisis situation, which I don't think most of these pregnancies qualify as.  Perhaps they see the lives of unborn people as much less valuable. 

There is a different between human life and a person.  

I stand corrected; sundin13 isn't a majority even if he meets the stricter criterion (his post isn't explicit). 

While I have your attention, I'd like to ask you about your statement, "We also need to have some sort of restriction as to when a fetus can be aborted, because it obviously doesn't suddenly switch alive the moment it is born.  But, the best we can do is lines in the sand.  We're never going to have a magican moment when a ball a cells qualifies as a human.  So, we leave the decisions in the gray area to the people directly involved in any case, particularly the woman who will be carrying the child."

How gray is this gray area you're talking about?  Your wording suggests that we let women get abortions when we aren't even confident we aren't killing people, just so long as we aren't confident we ARE killing people.  Would you like to clarify or elaborate on this? 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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The answer seems pretty obvious to me:

At what age has the youngest fetus ever been removed from a mother's womb and survived with assistance.

That is the age at which it is too late to abort a baby.

Even under those circumstances though, it's still a potential human being and should only be aborted after having been approved by a certain authority and only due to exceptional circumstances. For example: The mother was raped or the mother is not physically prepared to have the baby and will probably die if she gives birth.

We all have to live with our mistakes, and if you chose to have sex unprotected or while not in a long term relationship: have the child and deal with it.



I personally don't believe the government or state have the right to tell a woman what she can/cannot do with her body.

That being said, I don't support aborting past the 3rd trimester unless the mother's health/life are in jeopardy.