By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sports Discussion - The Pro Wrasslin' Thread (WWE, WWF, WCW, TNA, ROH, NWA, NJPW, etc)

Tagged games:

 

What match are you excited for at WWE Payback 2017?

Neville vs. Austin Aries ... 1 5.88%
 
Randy Orton vs. Bray Wyat... 3 17.65%
 
The Hardy Boyz vs. Cesaro... 3 17.65%
 
Kevin Owens vs. Chris Jer... 4 23.53%
 
Bayley vs. Alexa Bliss (Raw Women's Title) 3 17.65%
 
Seth Rollins vs. Samoa Joe 1 5.88%
 
Roman Reigns vs. Braun Strowman 2 11.76%
 
Total:17
pokoko said:

I'm one of those people who have no problem saying, "I told you so."  It's the era of SuperOkada.

40 minutes of a shooter tearing up your injured knee, and he can't get the job done. Brilliant. At this point I'm almost expecting them to do a rubber match where Suzuki wins for no particular reason. After 10 years of Jado & Gedo I think it may be time to give the book to someone else.

Strikes me as pretty dumb to have Suzuki-gun get completely shut down like that, and it seems like the only reason to do it is because nobody was expecting it to happen. Now they'll either have a big comeback (which is, at least on paper, an awfully face-ish storyline for their most heelish group) or just get lost in the shuffle once Bullet Club is back and everything is just a big, impenetrable clusterfuck between all the factions. Hooray for cards full of meaningless 8-man/10-man tags just to fit everyone in!



Around the Network
badgenome said:
pokoko said:

I'm one of those people who have no problem saying, "I told you so."  It's the era of SuperOkada.

40 minutes of a shooter tearing up your injured knee, and he can't get the job done. Brilliant. At this point I'm almost expecting them to do a rubber match where Suzuki wins for no particular reason. After 10 years of Jado & Gedo I think it may be time to give the book to someone else.

Strikes me as pretty dumb to have Suzuki-gun get completely shut down like that, and it seems like the only reason to do it is because nobody was expecting it to happen. Now they'll either have a big comeback (which is, at least on paper, an awfully face-ish storyline for their most heelish group) or just get lost in the shuffle once Bullet Club is back and everything is just a big, impenetrable clusterfuck between all the factions. Hooray for cards full of meaningless 8-man/10-man tags just to fit everyone in!

From the start, I've had it in my head that New Japan won't put over a group that got kicked out of NOAH with their tail between their legs.  Yeah, they dominated for awhile but perception is about what you've done lately.  

This is also the kind of situation where major MMA submissions fail in pro wrestling.  In reality, Okada would have tapped long before the end just to keep his career from ending, not simply because of pain.  If he *did* keep from tapping after all that, he darn sure wouldn't be doing drop kicks.  It's like they took the realistic parts because they're realistic and then made them as unrealistic as possible.  

I don't know who said it, but I remember one of the older guys saying that some of the really vicious submissions should be sold with either the one taking the move fighting like hell to keep the move from being applied cleanly or them fighting like hell to quickly reach the ropes for a break.  Extended periods locked into something nasty should be avoided.  I agree with that.  

Now I think we might be down to Naito being the only one who can take the belt away from Okada, and then only for a few months.  All part of New Japan's plan to have Okada top Cena's 20 World Heavyweight Championship wins.  Not sure he'll beat Roman's record, though.



pokoko said:

This is also the kind of situation where major MMA submissions fail in pro wrestling.  In reality, Okada would have tapped long before the end just to keep his career from ending, not simply because of pain.  If he *did* keep from tapping after all that, he darn sure wouldn't be doing drop kicks.  It's like they took the realistic parts because they're realistic and then made them as unrealistic as possible.  

I don't know who said it, but I remember one of the older guys saying that some of the really vicious submissions should be sold with either the one taking the move fighting like hell to keep the move from being applied cleanly or them fighting like hell to quickly reach the ropes for a break.  Extended periods locked into something nasty should be avoided.  I agree with that.

Yeah. It's kind of strange to see NJPW of all places go down that road. '90s AJPW got to the point where none of the top guys would ever submit and so submissions lost all credibility as finishers outside of undercard matches. I remember them doing exactly one hot submission spot in all those years (my avatar!) while in NJPW for so long any dude could get a reaction out of slapping on a cross armbreaker because it wouldn't have been unbelievable for anyone to tap out to it. Feels like in getting away from all the stupid parts of Inoki-ism they've also gotten too far away from the psychological underpinnings of the old strong style for my taste.

They're also starting to remind me of '90s AJPW in the way that the big main events are becoming increasingly epic purely for the sake of being epic. It becomes exhausting to watch when you know for a certainty that it won't end in the first 20 minutes, 30 is likely, and 40+ isn't out of the question. Just like AJPW was that stuff is all the rage among a certain subset of fan right now, but it's going to take its toll eventually... both in terms of diminishing returns and physical wear and tear.



badgenome said:
pokoko said:

This is also the kind of situation where major MMA submissions fail in pro wrestling.  In reality, Okada would have tapped long before the end just to keep his career from ending, not simply because of pain.  If he *did* keep from tapping after all that, he darn sure wouldn't be doing drop kicks.  It's like they took the realistic parts because they're realistic and then made them as unrealistic as possible.  

I don't know who said it, but I remember one of the older guys saying that some of the really vicious submissions should be sold with either the one taking the move fighting like hell to keep the move from being applied cleanly or them fighting like hell to quickly reach the ropes for a break.  Extended periods locked into something nasty should be avoided.  I agree with that.

Yeah. It's kind of strange to see NJPW of all places go down that road. '90s AJPW got to the point where none of the top guys would ever submit and so submissions lost all credibility as finishers outside of undercard matches. I remember them doing exactly one hot submission spot in all those years (my avatar!) while in NJPW for so long any dude could get a reaction out of slapping on a cross armbreaker because it wouldn't have been unbelievable for anyone to tap out to it. Feels like in getting away from all the stupid parts of Inoki-ism they've also gotten too far away from the psychological underpinnings of the old strong style for my taste.

They're also starting to remind me of '90s AJPW in the way that the big main events are becoming increasingly epic purely for the sake of being epic. It becomes exhausting to watch when you know for a certainty that it won't end in the first 20 minutes, 30 is likely, and 40+ isn't out of the question. Just like AJPW was that stuff is all the rage among a certain subset of fan right now, but it's going to take its toll eventually... both in terms of diminishing returns and physical wear and tear.

Oddly, the structure where matches have to keep topping themselves is something Tanahashi long spoke out against.  Now, you're right, it does feel like AJPW, which really isn't sustainable.  I'd rather see consistent 4-star matches than them reaching for 5-stars every single time.  40 minute matches should also be rare and unexpected.  Nakamura and Tanahashi used to have incredible matches that clocked in under 30 minutes.  That is what built NJPW up to where it is now.

Personally, unless there is a reason to go longer, I like matches in the 20-25 minute range.  Those are the matches I'll go back and watch, as well, like some of the G1 stuff (which is the best thing in wrestling).

NJPW also seems to be dangerously close to becoming "Okada Produce".  I suspect they're going to line up the roster for him to run through, much like Cena did at one point, though he'll keep getting pinned in 6-man tag matches so we think his next challenger has a chance.  I call it the "Bad Luck Fale" effect.  

Maybe I'm just bitter, as Okada is like my 5th or 6th favorite New Japan wrestler.  I like it a lot better when it seemed like everyone was closer to the same level.  



pokoko said:

NJPW also seems to be dangerously close to becoming "Okada Produce".  I suspect they're going to line up the roster for him to run through, much like Cena did at one point, though he'll keep getting pinned in 6-man tag matches so we think his next challenger has a chance.  I call it the "Bad Luck Fale" effect. 

Maybe I'm just bitter, as Okada is like my 5th or 6th favorite New Japan wrestler.  I like it a lot better when it seemed like everyone was closer to the same level.  

LOL @ Bad Luck Fale effect. You may be right, especially with Okada calling out Tiger Mask W. If that's not just a misdirect and they do have Ibushi as one of the next challengers it would only seem to be for the purposes of padding out his defenses. (Although it also potentially sets up some Okada/Omega/Ibushi stuff in the vein of Tanahashi/Okada/Styles.) I keep wondering if they'll decide to have Okada break Tanahashi's record for defenses. That would take a lot of discipline on their part, and who knows if the fans would turn on him by then because that's an awful hard push. The crowds even started to get kind of fed up with Tanahashi at one point, and I'm not really sure if Okada has "it" like Tanahashi did.

I'm torn on Okada. He's obviously very good and I respect the fact that he has kind of an underwhelming moveset that he does really well and keeps protected, sort of like a Japanese version of the Rock. It takes some balls to use a short arm clothesline as your finisher in CURRENT YEAR, and his dropkick is fucking beautiful. But there are times when he comes off as a little tryhard for my liking. Like, "I AM BEING THIS THING GEDO TOLD ME TO BE. AREN'T I IMPERIOUS?" He's definitely looking more comfortable in the role than even a year ago, and in 5 years he'll probably be incredible at it, but I think he could do with a little more Chono-esque non-chalance. It's probably something that only comes with time.



Around the Network
badgenome said:
pokoko said:

NJPW also seems to be dangerously close to becoming "Okada Produce".  I suspect they're going to line up the roster for him to run through, much like Cena did at one point, though he'll keep getting pinned in 6-man tag matches so we think his next challenger has a chance.  I call it the "Bad Luck Fale" effect. 

Maybe I'm just bitter, as Okada is like my 5th or 6th favorite New Japan wrestler.  I like it a lot better when it seemed like everyone was closer to the same level.  

LOL @ Bad Luck Fale effect. You may be right, especially with Okada calling out Tiger Mask W. If that's not just a misdirect and they do have Ibushi as one of the next challengers it would only seem to be for the purposes of padding out his defenses. (Although it also potentially sets up some Okada/Omega/Ibushi stuff in the vein of Tanahashi/Okada/Styles.) I keep wondering if they'll decide to have Okada break Tanahashi's record for defenses. That would take a lot of discipline on their part, and who knows if the fans would turn on him by then because that's an awful hard push. The crowds even started to get kind of fed up with Tanahashi at one point, and I'm not really sure if Okada has "it" like Tanahashi did.

I'm torn on Okada. He's obviously very good and I respect the fact that he has kind of an underwhelming moveset that he does really well and keeps protected, sort of like a Japanese version of the Rock. It takes some balls to use a short arm clothesline as your finisher in CURRENT YEAR, and his dropkick is fucking beautiful. But there are times when he comes off as a little tryhard for my liking. Like, "I AM BEING THIS THING GEDO TOLD ME TO BE. AREN'T I IMPERIOUS?" He's definitely looking more comfortable in the role than even a year ago, and in 5 years he'll probably be incredible at it, but I think he could do with a little more Chono-esque non-chalance. It's probably something that only comes with time.

If Ibushi doesn't sign to NJPW and prove his loyalty then he's only going to be a bump in the road.  A bump that delivers great matches but that's about it.  If it's anything like joshi (and I don't know that it is) then freelancers rarely win the top title unless they hot potato it back.  I remember when everyone was kind of shocked that Kana beat Arisa Nakajima for the JWP title.  

Which gave us this legendary moment, which I will always love and share forever even when it has little to do with the current topic.

This is what Suzuki should have done to Okada.

Okada is a great wrestler but he does nothing for me as a personality.  I'd love to see him display even a fraction of the charisma that Tanahashi has.  I understand that he's over in Japan, and maybe he has a lot more chances to sell himself over there, but I just don't find myself caring if he wins or loses.  Even when I was kind of annoyed with Tanahashi as the "Ace", he still impressed the hell out of me with the way he involved the audience.  Okada doesn't have that--though he has improved greatly.  I remember when his version of selling was looking mildy constipated.  He is young, though, despite being the top dog, so maybe that's not completely fair.  

Wrestling being so predictable with an unbeatable, hand-picked main character is something I really don't like.  I much prefer when wrestling surprises me.

Oh, yeah, and Kawada tapped out?  



pokoko said:

This is what Suzuki should have done to Okada.

*cries for what might have been*

pokoko said:

Wrestling being so predictable with an unbeatable, hand-picked main character is something I really don't like.  I much prefer when wrestling surprises me.

Yeah. There are ways to do that sort of thing so that it's still compelling, but I don't see any indication that Gedo has that ability. It's rare for anyone to have the book for as long as he has, and I really think it'd freshen things up to make a change there but of course I don't expect that will happen unless business falls off.

pokoko said:

Oh, yeah, and Kawada tapped out?  

Nah, he was using the figure-four on Misawa's (IIRC, legitimately bad) knee. It didn't end the match, but Misawa dropped his customary stoicism and screamed his fucking head off for the first time ever while Kawada made that face at him, and an AJPW crowd went bonkers for a submission hold for the first time since Misawa beat Jumbo with a facelock seven years prior.



pokoko said:
badgenome said:

40 minutes of a shooter tearing up your injured knee, and he can't get the job done. Brilliant. At this point I'm almost expecting them to do a rubber match where Suzuki wins for no particular reason. After 10 years of Jado & Gedo I think it may be time to give the book to someone else.

Strikes me as pretty dumb to have Suzuki-gun get completely shut down like that, and it seems like the only reason to do it is because nobody was expecting it to happen. Now they'll either have a big comeback (which is, at least on paper, an awfully face-ish storyline for their most heelish group) or just get lost in the shuffle once Bullet Club is back and everything is just a big, impenetrable clusterfuck between all the factions. Hooray for cards full of meaningless 8-man/10-man tags just to fit everyone in!

From the start, I've had it in my head that New Japan won't put over a group that got kicked out of NOAH with their tail between their legs.  Yeah, they dominated for awhile but perception is about what you've done lately.  

This is also the kind of situation where major MMA submissions fail in pro wrestling.  In reality, Okada would have tapped long before the end just to keep his career from ending, not simply because of pain.  If he *did* keep from tapping after all that, he darn sure wouldn't be doing drop kicks.  It's like they took the realistic parts because they're realistic and then made them as unrealistic as possible.  

I don't know who said it, but I remember one of the older guys saying that some of the really vicious submissions should be sold with either the one taking the move fighting like hell to keep the move from being applied cleanly or them fighting like hell to quickly reach the ropes for a break.  Extended periods locked into something nasty should be avoided.  I agree with that.  

Now I think we might be down to Naito being the only one who can take the belt away from Okada, and then only for a few months.  All part of New Japan's plan to have Okada top Cena's 20 World Heavyweight Championship wins.  Not sure he'll beat Roman's record, though.

I don't think anyone knows how to sell anymore.  I miss the tension that used to come from someone fighting a finisher for his dear life.  Then we have Orton kicking out of the FU on Smackdown...  Or Cena kicking out of the RKO, I can't remember what happened.



darkknightkryta said:

I don't think anyone knows how to sell anymore.

This cannot be said often enough.

(With very few exceptions, like Ishii.)



pokoko said:

Killer Elite will take the tag titles, though, I'm pretty sure.

Man, Suzuki-gun getting at least this much seemed like a shoo-in and it won't happen now that Archer's injured.

sobs

On the bright side, GBH's chances just went up!