Ariakon said:
Well, that's kind of true. I mean, if you don't look at the fact that Pro is upscaling most of its games from 1440 or 1800p to 4k with a built-in hardware checkerboard technique, and the S is upscaling Xbox One games from 720, 900 or 1080p without any checkerboard rendering technique the same way your TV would. So I mean, they're both upscaling, so I guess in that way they're totally comparable :)
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Just so you know, the Checkeroard-like effect isn't exclusive to the Playstation 4 Pro, it is entirely possible to achieve a similar effect in software, in-fact the Xbox One already has a game that does it, called "Quantum Break".
It takes four 720P frames and reconstructs it into a 1080P frame, there is no reason why the same couldn't be done by taking 4x 1080P frames to reconstruct it into a 4k frame.
With that said, that's still not going to put the Xbox One S in the same league as the PS4 graphically, or even allow it to compete in the resolution stakes, it simply doesn't have the performance.
SWORDF1SH said:
Is this guy dumb, seriously! From that event I know exactly what the PS Pro does. And his condescending tone about people that will buy it is just annoying. You're only paying $50 more than a 1TB Xbox One for a console that is a lot more powerful and does 4k gaming.
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Like all things, what you see as good value for money, someone else may not.
The term "One mans trash is another mans treasure" applies here, someone might find more value is to be had in the Xbox One S's superior multimedia capabilities as it can handle UHD Blu-Ray and playback Audio CD's.
And for some, the Xbox 360 backwards compatability is a big draw card.
Snoopy said:
This. Xbox Scorpio is in another league right now compare to pro. We aren't just talking just about the GPU, but CPU and ram as well. PS4 pro still uses the same CPU as the regular PS4 which is already weaker than xbox one. Not to mention it will be easier for devs to take full advantage of the Xbox Scorpio since Microsoft API is easily scalable. Don't believe me, just look at PC gaming. Thanks to direct x you can change the settings to 4k/high ultra settings to 1080p/ low settings by changing the settings in the menu. Microsoft will probably release a console every three years and guarantee each console a 6-7 year life span.
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We have no idea what Scorpio is, we have zero hardware details.
We have no idea what CPU it is using (Could be the same CPU as Xbox One and PS4.), how much or how fast the RAM is or what the GPU is.
And easier for devs to take advantage of the Xbox thanks to Microsoft's API?
Sure Direct X 12 is a great API (And that's not the only API on the Xbox One, but I'll assume that is what you are talking about)
But Sony's API's are just as good, Sony has Vulkan which is built from the ashes of AMD's Mantle which was originally designed to give AMD's hardware a leg-up, don't assume the API advantage is anything significant.
Mr.Playstation said:
Scorpio may be at a slightly higher level once released when compared to the ps4 pro though :P ( But definitaley not a different league :P)
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I am expecting the difference to be roughly in line with the jump we saw from the PS4 to PS4 Pro, so it should be significant, albeit marginal from an overall perspective, certainly not generationally different.
Snoopy said:
Microsoft has the better API and software to get the most out of their system. That is why Valve's own games performed better on Windows OS than Steam OS lol . Also, there is a huge difference between 2 teraflops and 1/2 a teraflop. Not even mentioning the fact xbox one scropio will have a better CPU and Ram than the PS4 pro. Regular ps4 had more and better ram than xbox one, but not a better cpu or Api/software.
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In some cases 1/2 Teraflop can be faster than 2 Teraflops.
And you have no idea what CPU and Ram the Scorpio will have, so don't assume it will be better than the PS4 Pro untill we have reliable, factual information on hand.
Snoopy said:
I never aruged developer friendly, but performance. Microsoft direct x and Microsoft OS has always been the best in terms of performance and getting the most of your hardware. Remember, Microsoft is the biggest software company in the world pretty much and they beat out the competition like steam OS in terms of performance. Not to mention most developers use direct x over opengl or the other alternatives that is why a lot of games aren't on Mac or perform worse on Mac.
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Steam OS wasn't built from the ground up, it was a derivative/fork of *Nix.
The big kicker is that nVidia and AMD have spent un-told millions of dollar, millions of man-hours engineering their software for optimal performance where the bulk of gamers lay, on Windows, not Steam OS or Linux.
You are right on one thing though, Microsoft has a stupidly massive amount of Software Engineers at it's disposal, it's always had an advantage in terms of memory consumption on it's consoles relative to the competition.
Snoopy said:
To me the difference between 4k/1440p and 1080p is much bigger than SD and HD when fully utilize. Also depends on tv size,distance from t.v.,ect. Even if we aren't talking about rez but just tflops, 2tflops will make a lot more difference in textures, lighting, ect then .5tf. Which was the point I was getting at. The person I was arguing was trying to say Scorpio and PS4 pro difference will be the same or similar to Xbox one and PS4 which isn't the case. As numbers get bigger even at the same percent the difference will always get larger.
900p / 1080p isn't no where close to 4k vs 1080p. Microsoft already stated the console will be 4k ready.
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Do you even know what flops are and how it even relates to rendering a game? And you do know there is more to a graphics chips performance than the single precision floating point number which could be entirely useless if the game doesn't use it to begin with?
Lawlight said:
Digital Foundry says it is a significant difference visually.
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I also agree with Digital Foundry, there is a significant visual upgrade, but that's also up to the developers.
With that said, putting everything into context... It's also not generationally better.
Lawlight said:
Scorpio won't be able to do current gen games at 4k native.
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Based on what? The non-existent hardware specifications to build that opinion around?
Snoopy said:
You guys shouldn't compare xbox scorpio to PC because a 6tf Xbox scorpio will outdo a 6tf PC in real world scenarios. Since xbox scorpio is closed platform, they can build a game around it more and get more out of it. If the developers know the Specs, they can get more out of the hardware. A 6tf xbox scorpio is around a 9-10 tf pc. |
You are so very wrong and inaccurate.
Flops for GPU's currently is Clock Rate * 2 * Shader pipelines and is representative of single precision floating point.
However, what if a game is built at half precision? Then your "flops" as you currently state them go un-used.
What if a game is using double-precision? Then your "flops" as your currently use them are pointless.
What if that 6 Teraflop GPU is backed by DDR3/DDR4 on a narrow bus? Then it's performance will tank at high resolutions and a GPU with less Flops could out-perform it with ease.
Heck, let's say that Scorpio is backed by the exact same memory as a PC GPU, but lacks some of the more modern capabilities like compression, it will still tank harder at higher resolutions, it's not unheard of to get 50% bandwidth gains due to more effective use.
nVidia has also reworked it's hardware to take a tiled based approach which has given it a massive edge in efficiency over AMD's hardware.
What about Geometry Engines that gives you more geometric detail in a world? What about the Texture Mapping Units which helps give every surface in your game worlds detail? What about the Render-Output Pipelines? Caches? Bus width?
If Scorpio build's it's CU blocks around an older but modified design, then on an efficiency basis 1 Flop for Scorpio could be less than 1 Flop for the PC with more modern CU's in single precision.
Not sure if you are aware of this, but it's actually rather common for a GPU with more flops to be slower than another GPU with less flops, heck just take a look at nVidia currently and compare them to AMD's hardware right now.
A 6 Teraflop scorpio chip is only comparable to a chip that is exactly the same. Exactly the same.
Now I ask you this, if you are so certain that a 6 Teraflop GPU will beat an nVidia GPU at 10 Teraflops, then I ask you: "What does Teraflops have to do with rendering?"
Hynad said:
CGI-Quality said:
To make such a judgment call, you'd need to know the exact specifics of each. So, I'm going to go with a "no", here.
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That's the kind of comments Pemalite usually has a lot of fun with. xD
Let's change the thread title to: "Some VGC guy thinks Project Scorpio will go toe to toe with 10TFlops PCs". xD
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Don't tell them that, you will scare them away. :(
1) That was years ago when the next gen systems were about to land.
2) We have Direct X 12 and Vulkan which gives the PC more console-like low level optimization.
3) Hardware has gotten more efficient.
4) Developers have caught up.
Not to mention anyone with a Radeon 7870 would have pretty much played the last several years of games with PS4-like levels of image quality anyway, which kinda throws out your theory... And performance for those cards are still getting better as AMD continues to refine it's drivers.
Snoopy said:
CGI-Quality said:
That proves absolutely nothing. One, there's no actual source. Two, it continues to ignore a certain set of factors that go into such a conclusion. How did you conclude that the X1 Scorpio matches a PC with 3-4TF more theoretical power?
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1.84 * 2 = 3.68. I was just being generous and thinking maybe developers will get a beter grasp on PC gaming.
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How does that even make sense? How is that even representational of the hardware we have? And the graphics we are experiencing?
Snoopy said:
Which favors consoles and xbox. Xbox doesn't need a heavy os like windows, they have api to specifically target the hardware and when talking about TF, xbox scorpio will match a 10 tf pc easily. Thats why you don't have games that look as good as uncharted 4 using a 1.8tf gpu on a pc. Sorry, but Consoles are better optimized than PC.
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But the Xbox actually is a heavier OS than Windows, it's running Multiple OS's even.
On a PC you can get away with 1Gb of Ram for the OS, not 3Gb+ on the consoles.
The Xbox is also reserving multiple CPU cores for itself, where on PC it might use a couple of % points in CPU time.
I'm interested in your well thought out, eloquent, technically accurate reply to all my points, Snoopy.
Swordmasterman said:
Uncharted 4 is in that level because they took years to develop, they have Sony to give money for the development, and only had 1 machine as the focus. So they had how to use 100% of it. A lot of PC Developers don't have the time ND had or the $. Making a very good PC game would limit their market, they need money. It is better to make a normal game and put settings for the ones who have better Pcs.
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Uncharted 4 took use of extremely good Art assets, but it also had it's detractors in the realm of graphics, shadowing was far from perfect.
And lemons.
Still a good looking game though, makes you wonder what Naughty Dog can achieve if they push the Playstation 4's Pro hardware? Something for Playstation Gamers to look forwards to.
