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Forums - Politics Discussion - EU referendum -UK users

 

Leave or remain

Leave 412 53.72%
 
Remain 355 46.28%
 
Total:767
Peh said:
sc94597 said:

One must ask, is this logically consistent? The only thing different about the pre and post World War II Europe is the EU?

The EU was created past WW2. The amount of nationalists went down/being silent after WW2. Again, where do you think is all this going to if they want to destroy the EU and more and more nationalists gaining more power?

And no, it's obviously not the only difference, but the one that seems to matter to me right now.

The EU was created in 1993...

It has become increasingly authoritarian overriding sovereign democracies. Discontent with it is growing across the continent and ultimately carrying on its current path would have lead to further conflict on the continent.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

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MikeRox said:
Peh said:

The EU was created past WW2. The amount of nationalists went down/being silent after WW2. Again, where do you think is all this going to if they want to destroy the EU and more and more nationalists gaining more power?

And no, it's obviously not the only difference, but the one that seems to matter to me right now.

The EU was created in 1993...

It has become increasingly authoritarian overriding sovereign democracies. Discontent with it is growing across the continent and ultimately carrying on its current path would have lead to further conflict on the continent.

 This is not the whole truth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/20/what-is-the-eu-why-was-it-created-and-when-was-it-formed1/                              

The EU can trace its origins from the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC), formed in 1951 and 1958 respectively by the Inner Six countries of Belgium, France, West Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. 

French foreign minister Robert Schuman led the formation of the ECSC with the Schuman Declaration in May 1950. The organisation was a forerunner of several other European Communities and what is now the European Union.

 

http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_European_Union



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Peh said:
MikeRox said:

The EU was created in 1993...

It has become increasingly authoritarian overriding sovereign democracies. Discontent with it is growing across the continent and ultimately carrying on its current path would have lead to further conflict on the continent.

 This is not the whole truth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/20/what-is-the-eu-why-was-it-created-and-when-was-it-formed1/                              

The EU can trace its origins from the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC), formed in 1951 and 1958 respectively by the Inner Six countries of Belgium, France, West Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. 

French foreign minister Robert Schuman led the formation of the ECSC with the Schuman Declaration in May 1950. The organisation was a forerunner of several other European Communities and what is now the European Union.

 

http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_European_Union

Before 1993 it was mainly a trade union, the EU is a political union. And to comment on the rise of Nationalism, Nigel Farage once said: "If you rob people of democracy, if you rob people of their identity, then all that you get is nationalism". Seems like he was right.



AnthonyW86 said:
Peh said:

 This is not the whole truth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/20/what-is-the-eu-why-was-it-created-and-when-was-it-formed1/                              

The EU can trace its origins from the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC), formed in 1951 and 1958 respectively by the Inner Six countries of Belgium, France, West Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. 

French foreign minister Robert Schuman led the formation of the ECSC with the Schuman Declaration in May 1950. The organisation was a forerunner of several other European Communities and what is now the European Union.

 

http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_European_Union

Before 1993 it was mainly a trade union, the EU is a political union. And to comment on the rise of Nationalism, Nigel Farage once said: "If you rob people of democracy, if you rob people of their identity, then all that you get is nationalism". Seems like he was right.

Schuman and Monnet started by the economic aspect because they knew that it was much more difficult to start by the political aspect but from the begining the point was in the long term to create a political union. 



Peh said:
sc94597 said:

One must ask, is this logically consistent? The only thing different about the pre and post World War II Europe is the EU?

The EU was created past WW2. The amount of nationalists went down/being silent after WW2. Again, where do you think is all this going to if they want to destroy the EU and more and more nationalists gaining more power?

And no, it's obviously not the only difference, but the one that seems to matter to me right now.

Even without the EU, the world today is very different from the pre-WWII world, in almost every aspect.



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sc94597 said:
Peh said:

The EU was created past WW2. The amount of nationalists went down/being silent after WW2. Again, where do you think is all this going to if they want to destroy the EU and more and more nationalists gaining more power?

And no, it's obviously not the only difference, but the one that seems to matter to me right now.

Even without the EU, the world today is very different from the pre-WWII world, in almost every aspect.

It is, different from the past, but xenophobia and nationailsm is on the rise, do you expect to run a country and help other countries out when they are in trouble?

Leaving and destroying the EU is one thing, but the people who will be in control are the ones who worry me. Populists like Boris Johnson.



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princevenom said:
Darama said:
Let's hope this keeps the middle easterns out of the country.

and i hope uk will leave nato and stop bombing syria and  iraq

Why that's a good thing.



Peh said:
sc94597 said:

Even without the EU, the world today is very different from the pre-WWII world, in almost every aspect.

It is, different from the past, but xenophobia and nationailsm is on the rise, do you expect to run a country and help other countries out when they are in trouble?

Leaving and destroying the EU is one thing, but the people who will be in control are the ones who worry me. Populists like Boris Johnson.

Is that the job of countries? To help others out at the expense of their own populations? Nationalism might be on the rise a bit, but definitely nowhere near pre-WWII levels. And the economic interdendence of all countries (regardless of the EU) prevents much warfare. Do you honestly think most countries will just put themselves into isolationist bubbles, and juxtaposed aggravating alliances as they had before WWII?

I am quite anti-nationalism, and an ardent individiualist, but I really think the fear-mongering and Nazi comparisons harm one's cause against nationalism than help. There has to be a balance, and those who faultingly support protectionism and/or nationalism need to feel that they are heard, are not being silenced, and are part of any discussion. That is why it boiled underneath the surface until it has now outbursted. 



princevenom said:
Darama said:
Let's hope this keeps the middle easterns out of the country.

and i hope uk will leave nato and stop bombing syria and  iraq

Why?! Just for your information:

  1. NATO isn't active in Syria and Iraq. Just because NATO member states are active in Syria and Iraq doesn't mean NATO is active there
  2. The UK and the other Western countries only attack terrorists like ISIS, not government forces. Even though the Syrian government commits war crimes on a daily basis the UK and other countries refuse to attack them.


poklane said:
princevenom said:

and i hope uk will leave nato and stop bombing syria and  iraq

Why?! Just for your information:

  1. NATO isn't active in Syria and Iraq. Just because NATO member states are active in Syria and Iraq doesn't mean NATO is active there
  2. The UK and the other Western countries only attack terrorists like ISIS, not government forces. Even though the Syrian government commits war crimes on a daily basis the UK and other countries refuse to attack them.

The sad thing is, we only take part in a war when it is profitable for us. No one cares if people heads are chopped off, mass murdering are caused and more brutal stuff. We just lecture them verbaly and go on with our lives.

Even IF a second Hitler would be living on this earth and we would know he would mass kill jews and other people, we would still watch and do nothing about it until he would gave us a reason by attacking a friendly state of ours. That's the world we live in.

We want to fight ISIS? Well, only in our country. We don't go for the source, let it be done by the goverment who is located there.



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