Stupid super heroes story but enjoyable movie to watch.

So, as peviously warned, this is going to be a big'un, and as such I've divided it into two posts. The first is a bit of a 'recap' on both Tony Stark and Steve Rogers' histories and personalities throughout their prior movie appearances, focusing on details that will come into play during Civil War. The second post will cover Civil War itself, and how all those chickens from previous movies come home to roost.

Keep in mind this isn't intended to be a 'YOU MUST AGREE WITH ME AND LIKE THE MOVIE!' kind of thing, as given your reasons for disliking it, there's nothing here that will actually make you LIKE the direction taken. The reason this ended up so long is it was kind of enjoyable to look back on the prior Marvel films, to see the point we've reached. As I said before, though, I sincerely believe the actions and motivations of both characters are- though hardly ethically flawless or even particularly bright- certainly understandable and consistent, given their prior experiences. I.e. they do stupid things, but it's not out of character when held up against what they've done, and what's been done to them. There are smaller details that can be hashed out as well- motivations of side characters, etc- but this sodding thing is long enough, so if wanted, we can discuss it later on. xP

****

So! Let's look at the histories of the two main players in Civil War. Tony Stark, from the very beginning, was unfettered by much of anything; he was rich, brilliant, handsome, and as such pretty much did whatever the heck he wanted. So there was lots of drinking, gambling, random sex, and zero responsibility, as he used his intellect to crank out ingenious weapons to profit the company. That is, until he came face to face with the pain, terror and destruction his actions, and his carelessness, enabled; the things he had created, with whatever intention, were being used to spread fear and misery. This was what spurred him to change his ways, to take responsibility and ultimately become Iron Man.

But he only changed to a degree. Sure, now he was a one-man army rather than a self-centered playboy, but he still HANDLED everything like a self-centered playboy. At the end of the second Iron Man film, SHIELD's assessment led to the judgement 'Iron Man, approved... Tony Stark, not approved.' =P Technically speaking, the only reason the Avengers Initiative was pulled from the mothballs- and Tony brought into it- was because Loki was actively invading, and Fury was out of options. And even then, he got in a pissing contest with Thor in the woods, hacked SHIELD's database within minutes or arriving on the helicarrier, and repeatedly tried to get Banner to 'Hulk Out' which I think everyone would agree is an INCREDIBLY stupid thing to do.

Iron Man 3 showed us more of his temper and willingness to incite violence, when he gives his address to the public in order to dare the Mandarin to come after him in the wake of significant personal loss. It also showed us his carelessness, as despite giving his address to a notorious terrorist, he couldn't be assed to prepare a proper defense, and so promptly gets his house blown to smithereens, and is very nearly killed in the process. Again, SO dumb.

So. Independant streak a mile wide. Careless. Arrogant. Reckless. And, at times, wrathful. But in all these films, either everything turned out all right in the end, or at most Stark was the only one who really suffered from his own mistakes and stupidity.

But then he took things too far. Just because he could, (and despite Banner's initial reluctance,) he created Ultron, (reckless) without consulting anyone BUT Banner, (arrogant) and without even being on hand during the final sodding tests. ("Yeah, Jarvis, you handle it, I gotta party to go to." Careless.) Scarlet Witch used her powers to brain zap him, certainly, but her influence only ever seemed to bring out what was already in each character. Black Widow's deep-rooted fears about her past and sterility, Steve's nostalgia for his old life, Thor's... sequel bait... and of course Hulk's rage unfettered. Even if she loosened the bolts in Tony's brain, what came pouring out of it to create Ultron was all his, and he knew that.

Now think back to the first movie; Tony Stark, upon coming face to face with the suffering caused by his carelessness, radically changes his behavior, going from carefree party-boy to one-man armored army. Ultron, and Sokovia, was essentially the first time since that desert cave where he had to face it all over again. Tony's actions, his carelessness and his big ol' brain, led to a catastrophe just as destructive and bloody as anything Tony's old weapon program had spawned.

So, just like the first Iron Man movie, Tony felt compelled to change, which at the end of the second Avengers movie simply manifests in his decision to 'retire' and try to stop doing Iron Man-y things at all, removing the temptation and restraining his ability to screw things up.

***

Now, Steve Rogers. The first film begins with his stubborn attempts to enlist in the army despite repeatedly being turned away. While this might be seen as admirable- he wants to serve his country, contribute to the war effort, etc- I wouldn't say he was doing the right thing, even then. The aptitude tests he failed existed for a reason; not simply to keep him safe from just getting uselessly killed, but also because if he couldn't run fast enough, pick up heavy enough objects, or otherwise perform properly, he would put every man he served with in danger.

Put simply, pre-serum Steve did NOT have what it took, but he was determined to join the army anyway. Why? Because he didn't want to leave the fighting up to other people, even if they were better suited for it. =P He was never able to just let other people 'take care of things,' regardless of how qualified they were, and even his time as a mascot was something he tolerated only because 1) arguably selling war bonds was at least HELPING, and 2) his desire to be in the thick of it clashed with the thought that he should be a good soldier and follow orders.

The movie also demonstrated another key trait to his character; his fierce loyalty to Bucky, and it's hard not to figure out why. Barnes had likewise been loyal to him, from a very young age, and might have even been the only close friend pre-serum Steve had. When post-serum Steve finds out that Bucky, along with other soldiers, has been taken by the enemy, he promptly ignores any orders, any chain of command, enlists some help and air drops into enemy territory, despite having absolutely zero combat experience beyond chasing down one spy. Why? Because they had Bucky. Sure, they also had OTHER guys there, and Steve might well have gone anyway, but... well, he seemed to be 'following orders' by remaining a mascot (even if he saw himself as a performing monkey,) up until Barnes was in danger. At which point he drops everything, and does something reckless and stupid.So he saves Barnes, they and some others form the Howling Commandos, and after many adventures... Barnes is killed, at least seemingly. Not only killed, but in a way where Steve was there, saw him in trouble, and simply couldn't get to him in time to save him. Not being able to defend and protect someone who had meant the world to him, and had his back countless times, would inevitably have had a tremendous impact.

After he wakes up in the present day, he tries to get back into the swing of things, though it's worth noting that even in the Avengers he went so far as to snoop around the Helicarrier to see what they were hiding, rather than just taking everything at face value. And it's also worth noting that, first chance they get, the 'Security Council' Fury answers to decided 'Screw It, We're Gonna Nuke New York' first chance they got, something Steve, or Fury for that matter, never would have agreed to.

Which leads us to The Winter Soldier, the Russo brothers' prior film and- therefore not surprisingly- the biggest source of examples on Steve's behavior. Two major developments happen here. The first is that Steve, after trying to remain a good soldier by following the orders of SHIELD, obeying their instructions, their guiding hand... finds out that Hydra had been spreading through the organization for decades, while the group SUPPOSED to oversee them remained blissfully unaware. It was only by operating outside the law that Steve and Friends were able to prevent a catastrophe that would have seen thousands dead and Hydra emerge as a dominant force, and this success was entirely because Steve didn't put his trust in an authority figure like Fury's friend-turned-betrayer, and instead relied on his own judgement, with the help of his closest allies.

The second, of course, is the return of Barnes as the Winter Soldier. Now, Steve does fight him, but there are only two instance he's really got his 'heart' in it. The first is before he knows who the Winter Soldier actually is, when he's coming to Black Widow's defence. The second is when the trio of helicarriers are seconds away from killing countless people, and he NEEDS to get up to that freaking catwalk. But the moment the 'day is saved,' and the only thing Steve has on the line is his own life? He stops fighting. Drops his shield, refuses to confront his friend, willingly gets pummeled in the face by a VERY strong metal arm because he simply refused to fight Barnes. And this was without ANY real proof or hint that anything was actually left of Barnes' mind, as this was all before Barnes dragged his unconscious body onto the shore. Steve was fully aware that his refusal to fight, to even defend himself, could very well lead to his death and possibly let a dangerous assassin run free. So why didn't he fight? Part 2 shall explain! =P

Drawing apart elements from the earlier post, my conclusion is that in Civil War, both characters- Steve and Tony- were being driven, first and foremost, by failure.

Tony Stark, who had failed to properly control and restrain his own ridiculous ego and intellect, overcompensated. First he tried to restrain himself by no longer being Iron Man, but when- and he confesses this- he realized he COULDN'T stop, that he wanted the adventure and the shooting and all that stuff too badly to simply retire, he chose to put himself under someone else's authority. Not because he WANTED to be restrained or controlled (as evidenced by his typical snideness and occasional acts of rebellion against Ross,) but because he felt he had to be. He wanted to be Iron Man, but didn't trust himself to operate without oversight. As such, he felt that he (and, due to his ego, everyone else) NEEDED the restraints that the Accords would provide.

Steve Rogers is a bit of a mix between his own failure, and the failure of others. His attempts to be a 'good soldier' and follow orders had nearly caused catastrophe, as countless people in SHIELD and everyone supposedly keeping it in line failed to stave off corruption or identify Hydra's influence until the last moment. Because of that, he didn't trust the authority of some other committee or group, regardless of who they were. Not because he necessarily thought 'He Knew Better,' (though obviously there was some concern of bureaucracy,) but most importantly because his own intentions, aims and goals were the only ones he knew for certain. Following any group assigned to oversee and direct the Avengers, he'd never know for sure if he could really trust the agendas of those pulling the strings. The one time he came close to agreeing to sign, his sole condition was that there had to be safeguards- measures that kept whoever would be in charge of them from having too much unfettered power over the Avengers. 

Meanwhile, Steve's own defining failure was how he had been unable to protect one of the two most important people in his life, and when given a second chance, he couldn't fail that person again. He would not kill Bucky, wouldn't even allow him to be killed, not if there was anything he could do to prevent it. So when Barnes was about to be confronted by a squad of soldiers sent with the express purpose of killing him, Steve wasn't going to let it happen. And his intervention succeeded; though Barnes was captured, Steve wasn't trying to help him ESCAPE during that first encounter, just trying to help keep him alive, and more importantly keep him from doing anything that would make things worse, like kill all the soldiers sent to take him out.

But then, when Bucky was locked away in a holding cell, Zemo came a'knockin, seemingly an on-the-level fellow sent through official channels... only to stage a 'jailbreak' and thoroughly screw with Barnes' head. Keep in mind, the fact that Zemo was only POSING as the legitimate guy wasn't revealed til after the airport scene, meaning Steve had no way of knowing Zemo was an entirely rogue element rather than someone sent by some shadowy cabal within the U.N., or an individual government. After having already seen an entire pseudo-Nazi group infiltrate SHIELD without triggering any alarm bells, Zemo's actions would inevitably have left Steve thinking 'Well, SHIT, I officially have no idea who I can trust in the U.N. I'm sure as Hell not taking him back there.' 

But Tony, still SUPER determined to bring structure and order to the chaos- and, admittedly, also try to keep people he had fought alongside from getting killed by government retaliation- wasn't going to settle for anything short of MAKING Steve bring Barnes back. Now, the airport scene and the circumstances directly leading to it can take up an entire post all its own, so for now Imma ride past it and bring us to the final act of the movie, where the 'true enemy!' is revealed to Stark.

And, to Tony's credit, despite literally JUST having watched his friend get his spine wrecked and having had his own ass kicked, all while trying to make stubborn, STUBBORN Steve do what he wants, Stark seems ready to swallow his pride and anger in order to neutralize a potential threat. He joins Bucky and Cap to deal with the super soldiers, but upon arriving, he came across an entirely unexpected reminder of what has been an ongoing failure; confronting what had happened to his mother. Keep in mind, during the beginning- that 'Holo Therapy' thing- his projection speaks to his FATHER when trying to 'make peace' but says nothing to his mother. And Tony, a man who never shuts up and has pretty regularly spoken about said father- admittedly in not the fondest of tones- never, speaks about his mother. Because she was the loss he couldn't face, at least until that moment. In his rage, he didn't tell Barnes 'You killed my father,' or even 'You killed my parents.' No, he specifically said 'You killed my mother.'

Bottom line, Tony was going to kill Barnes. Not rough up, not capture and drag back to the authorities, I'm talking flat-out murder, with no indication that he was at ANY time going to hold back a finishing blow, and he would take out anyone who got in his way. And, well, two prior Captain America films probably makes it pretty clear that Barnes dying (again) was something Steve was NEVER going to allow, even if it meant fighting Tony to do so. =P Because nothing short of taking out Stark's suit was going to make him stop coming after Barnes.

*****

Phew. Okay! I think it's only fair that I do cover the elements in the movie that didn't jive quite as much for me.

Whereas I can pretty much figure out the motivations of most of the side characters- i.e. why they're on the side they chose- Vision's motivations are rather nebulous. I get the impression maybe they're hinting at his romantic interest in Wanda, and as such he's doing all this because he sincerely believes Tony's way is the best way to keep her safe, but it's not super clear.

And if we want to talk about characters who are portayed as OP, what about Black Panther? The guy is wearing an entire SUIT made of the same substance that Captain America's shield is composed of. We've already seen that it can tank helicopter gunfire without having him even flinch, and he even covers a gunbarrel point-blank with his hand without suffering any sort of damage. o_o I have NO idea how they plan to make anything a credible threat to him in his standalone movie.

The final segment of Zemo's plan is just rather ridiculous, as it hinges on both Iron Man AND Winter Soldier ending up in the same bunker at the same time; sure, he triggers the discovery of all his secret stuff so Tony clues in to what's really going on and MIGHT find the bunker as a result, but the timing and details are just so precise, it's a wonder things actually fell into place THAT well. But before that, (i.e., getting Tony and Steve on opposing sides due to Barnes,) I thought it was at least a doable plan, if only in a 'Well, I have NO fucking chance of killing, well, ANY of them on my own... so heck, Hail Mary manipulation ploy it is!'

I'll even agree that Steve NOT telling Tony about the fact that HYDRA was involved in his parents' deaths was a really weird choice. o.o It wasn't even about protecting Bucky, as Rogers legitimately didn't know any of the details behind their deaths, (he only knew about it at all due to a VERY brief mention in The Winter Soldier,) so having him keep it to himself seemed like an odd choice. I don't necessarily think Steve's secrecy (or Steve knowing about Stark's parents in the first place) would have even been needed; I would totally have bought Stark still going nuts at finding out Bucky was the murderer, and fighting Steve JUST because Cap was in his way, taking Rogers' attempts to stop him as a betrayal all its own. So I do think it could have been dropped without losing anything significant.

However, all that aside, the core movie- its main characters' motivations, the underlying themes- are, (in my opinion, of course,) quite solid. =P They do stupid, reckless things, but they've always DONE stupid, reckless things. The difference is that the consequences for those things had a lot more weight this time around.

I haven't seen the movie, but I suspect this thread is better

Zanten, I agree with about all your points in there... and there are plenty of other movies in the same universe showing how bad is to let the government rule over your powers.

I recommend this film to everyone who is at the least mildy interested in superhero films. For me it's def. in the top 5 MCU movies so far and it's easy to see why the critics are loving it. 

Yes, theres a lot that you can nitpick from the film, as there's a lot that you can nitpick from every Marvel film. I'm not going to go to the trouble of listing every little thing because I still feel  nothing is as big as to ruin the film experience. Every character is seing the "big issue" presented in the film from a personal level and def. feels like a lot of people are not getting it or at the very least are exagerating in this thread. It's an ensemble film at the end of the day and as far as Marvel films or Avenger film goes this one feels like it uses the characters in a better way than previous films, specially coming from Age of Ultron. Everyone has their moment to shine.  Everyone has their reason to be involved. Some better reasons than others, but everyone is justified. Hell, I'd go ahead and say that finally we get a great "villain" in the form of Zemo, who sure it's nothing like the Zemo in the comics, but still is a great character. 

Final-Fan said: I haven't seen the movie, but I suspect this thread is better

Well, from my POV, that would be a safe bet!  

I don't agree with most of what you said, but this is a great post. Too bad I might only have time to comment properly on weekend.

And remember, Captain America was raised and tempered in World War 2, a VERY different time when the nazis and hydra were around, so yeah...Timeliness isn't as straightforward with that character.  Very important element to him. 

Okie dokie, I'll wait for your reply, then. ^_^