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Forums - Sony - After much resistance, I am on board with the Neo

 

Do you like the idea of the Neo

Yes 120 32.00%
 
No 124 33.07%
 
As long as they keep to t... 111 29.60%
 
I told you console peasants they were weak! 7 1.87%
 
No Opinion 13 3.47%
 
Total:375
dharh on 22 April 2016
zero129 said:

True you are really twisting facts if you thought it cost over 400 for a GPU that was more powerful then the one in the PS4 on its release.

The is a reason why people where calling the PS4 "Low End" on its release you know..

€400 for the PS4 at release+150 for 3 years of PS+. thats 550 right there. Now lets say PS4K costs 400 (Has the price been announced yet?).

PS4 goes down to what €300?. Gamestop will give you about €100-150 to trade it in. IF you sell it you will get about €200. So lets say you get €200.

PS4k is now costing you €800. Now add another €150 for another 3 years of PS+ and you have 1000 euro.

PC user Spends 800 in 2011-2 (This is me) and build a PC that has a i5-2500K@3.3Ghz CPU, AMD 6680-1GB GDDR5, and 8GB ram.

For the parts i said up above costs about 600 and the rest of the PC  (Case,mobo etc)made the total 800.

My pc was playing multi plats better then the PS4 on its release, and kept doing so up until 2014 when i spend about 150 for an amd r9-280x-3GB GDDR5 card that came with 3 games (New games too).

This PC will still most likely be playing multiplats looking just as good as the PS4k.

Pretty much what im saying is PS4 gamers can no longer use any of their old arguments against PC's.

No longer can they use (In order of them being wiped out)

PC's cant use joypads.

PC's need a monitor.

PC users have to worry about broken games and patchs and DLC and day 1 patchs etc.

PC's cost way more then consoles.

PC's wont work in the living room (Hallo Steam Big Picture Mode and Small Form PC's)

PC's dont get no japan support so no Final Fantasy or Tales of etc etc.

You need to upgrade your PC every 3 years (This one is so funny now since it bites right back to PS4 users who used to say it against PC, and now other console users can use the same argument against Sony gamers lol).

Pretty much every argument thats been used against PC gaming over the years have been wiped out one by one.

Fact is, having a PC running Steam in Big Picture Mode is no different then having a PS4 under your TV, they both now offer the same experiences including needing to upgrade every 3 years if you want to play games looking the best they can look.

Indeed the real main reason to game on any console has and always really is exclusives and ease of use.  All those other reasons were just smoke.

I still play my PS4 more than my PC.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of their first breath to the moment of their last.
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iLikeEggs on 22 April 2016

I think this is a cool idea. Technology advances, and if people have the option to upgrade, then they should do it, if interested. This is why I prefer pc gaming, except you get more freedom and customization with pc than playstation, which is why I have no interest in this. also, i bet most games will still target 30 fps, which is ridiculous. still, this upgrade is cool, and I think it should become standard.



Hi

Lafiel on 22 April 2016
SvennoJ said:
Lafiel said:

were they wrong? Is U4 not a giant leap up from launch games? and the stuff they are able to do with "dreams" is just breathtaking

I very much doubt Sony is releasing a stronger PS4 because the performance of the console isn't good enough to warrant 10 years of software support, the reason is much much more likely to be economics. My theory (I voiced several times in this and other threads) is that there is very limited potential for price cuts with the current model possibly due to shrinking the APU not being viable (horrible yields, enormous investments to get current architecture rdy for different process), while the stronger APU actually can end up being cheaper (smaller die size) > more potential for price cuts in the future, which extends sales/profits to be had with the console.

Erm, in no universe is doubling the amount of compute units cheaper than sticking to the same amount. Makes no sense.
You say smaller die size is possible for a new APU but not for the current one?

As I said, my theory is that it's simply not viable to shrink the current architecture, so they have to use one made for 14/16nm finfet to use this process.

But using a same-spec (18CU etc) chip as the old one opens a whole new can of worms, because code written "to the metal" for the old chip won't run as efficiently out of the box (and they certainly don't want every game to need a patch) on the new architecture, so to circumvent this problem they imo always had to throw in additional CUs to make sure the finfet chip can brute force PS4 parity in unpatched games. Doubling the CU count even makes it possible to sell the PS4 Neo at a higher price as long as both version coexist > higher margins.

Due to the enormous differences in structure size between chips made in 28nm and 14/16nm the PS4 Neo APU will certainly have a smaller die size than the current PS4 APU and in the end (when yields have caught up and process costs have sunken due to enough production capacities being available) that's the most important factor for chip price per unit (the more working chips you get from a silicon wafer, the cheaper they are per unit).



SvennoJ on 22 April 2016
Lafiel said:
SvennoJ said:

Erm, in no universe is doubling the amount of compute units cheaper than sticking to the same amount. Makes no sense.
You say smaller die size is possible for a new APU but not for the current one?

As I said, my theory is that it's simply not viable to shrink the current architecture, so they have to use one made for 14/16nm finfet to use this process.

But using a same-spec (18CU etc) chip as the old one opens a whole new can of worms, because code written "to the metal" for the old chip won't run as efficiently out of the box (and they certainly don't want every game to need a patch) on the new architecture, so to circumvent this problem they imo always had to throw in additional CUs to make sure the finfet chip can brute force PS4 parity in unpatched games. Doubling the CU count even makes it possible to sell the PS4 Neo at a higher price as long as both version coexist > higher margins.

Due to the enormous differences in structure size between chips made in 28nm and 14/16nm the PS4 Neo APU will certainly have a smaller die size than the current PS4 APU and in the end (when yields have caught up and process costs have sunken due to enough production capacities being available) that's the most important factor for chip price per unit (the more working chips you get from a silicon wafer, the cheaper they are per unit).

Ahh that makes sense, so the new GPU would be a different architecture. Sounds like a massive oversight at the time the ps4 was designed, causing quite a pita for developers going forward. So brute force emulation of the base model with the option to write more efficient NEO specific code. (those separate NEO GPU binaries make sense now) Clusterfuck with a silver lining...



Intrinsic on 22 April 2016
zero129 said:
dharh said:

Indeed the real main reason to game on any console has and always really is exclusives and ease of use.  All those other reasons were just smoke.

I still play my PS4 more than my PC.

Yes cos PC dont have games that brings millions and will bring millions more to the platform as it becomes and has become more and more accable,, and as this difference between  whats a console and whats a pc vanishes. and it pretty much already had. Only think thats different now is "Are you using Sonys OS running PSStore or a PC OS running Steam?, ORigin,MSStore? whatever store you want.

WoW, TF2,CDGO,Dota2,LoL,STTOR, Minecraft etc etc, they are all games that are (Or at least the proper versions are) exclusive to the PC platform. and they are also much more bigger then any of the exclusives thats on the consoles.

Consoles lost their "Ease of use" thing years ago and are lossing it even more as more Day 1 and broken DLC games get relesed.

This is how it is for a console game, turns on console, turns on tv, goes to play game, day 1 patch, risc of bugs even game braking ones.

PC user turns on pc boots into steams big picture mode, goes to play the game, downloads day 1 patch, risc of bugs.

Still at least if the game as perfomance issues they can be fixed on PC along with another number of things by the users, and sometimes even faster then in official patchs. While console users have to wait for the dev to do something about it.

So i guess now PS4 no longer even has the ease of use espect that the old gen consoles used o have.

Pop game in play.

Now its pop game in and hope it plays or wait for a day 1 patch and DLC to fix it.

ok ok we get it. consoles are dead and PCs are the future. Now there is absolutely no reason to own a console. 

I think you have made your point very clear so far. As I said, I should have noticed it earlier. 



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Lafiel on 22 April 2016
SvennoJ said:

Ahh that makes sense, so the new GPU would be a different architecture. Sounds like a massive oversight at the time the ps4 was designed, causing quite a pita for developers going forward. So brute force emulation of the base model with the option to write more efficient NEO specific code. (those separate NEO GPU binaries make sense now) Clusterfuck with a silver lining...

at the time they finalised the PS4 they might still have been hopeful to be able to use the 20nm process in the future and there were reports of AMD attempting to make use of that one up until dec 2014, yet it seems that never came to fruition and with that died that option for X1/PS4 APUs aswell

the newest processes even have a changed transistor layout (finfet) afaik effectively making "shrinks" complete redesigns, so that might have been out of the question from the get go



Swordmasterman on 23 April 2016
zero129 said:
Intrinsic said:

ok ok we get it. consoles are dead and PCs are the future. Now there is absolutely no reason to own a console. 

I think you have made your point very clear so far. As I said, I should have noticed it earlier. 

Exclusives are now the only reason to own a PS4 anyways.

Until the Official Announcement, i will take the PS4 Neo, as a Rumor, and Exclusives, should be the Selling point of every console, in the end people only purchase consoles to Play Games, if the Game is only on 1 System, so they don't have other choise than Purchase the console to play the game.



DraconianAC on 23 April 2016

I will no longer defend Sony if this happens. If the masses wish to spin this into a positive for them because they like throwing money at corporations, fine; I'm not willing to do the same. It's probably age talking now, but I like buying something after I do the research and having a good idea how long it might last for me. When I purchased the vita, I knew what I was getting into; I made a decision based on the popularity of the smart phone, and possible low support rate. I knew a cfw was around the corner that would help alleviate it JRPG library (I still own it).

With the PS4 I truly believe I was sold a machine that would not become inferior to future reiterations, like the PS3 and PS1 that I owned. I don't mind supporting a company that is upfront about their plans, I detest and boycott companies/corporations that pull sneaky maneuvers that make you spend more in the future. I was willing to pass on it before because of my love for gaming, but screw it; I don't need to buy these things new and on release date. I can probably find it used and cheaper a year down from release. Screw buying PSVR if this is true, and buying anything from Sony new, they will have lost my support.

There is another way to vote, and that is with your purchasing power.



Mosfet on 23 April 2016

As long as all the games in the future work on my ps4 base,I'm also fine with it.



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mutantsushi on 23 April 2016

Funny thing when I think about people's fears games will optimize for PS4.5/neglect PS4.0 optimizations...
(despite install base implying that the reverse will be true, if anything)
2x GPU with only 1.25xCPU implies even more CPU bottlenecking than current PS4,
whose limitations are seen in games where XBone's sole advantage of 5% CPU clock yields better results despite GPU gap with PS4..
Well how do you deal with a CPU bottleneck? Offload to GPU. Enabled by AMD's ACE, which PS4 went overboard with (for size).
So PS4.5 optimizations will heavily favor ACE. And those same ACE designs will tend to carry over to PS4.0.
(which AFAIK we haven't seen nearly as much of as the platform could allow)
So I don't see a conflict in PS4.0/4.5 optimizations, in fact they should be synergistic IMHO.