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Forums - Sony - You Sure the PS4K is a Real Thing!?

 

Your opinion on "PS4K"?

It doesnt exist, only fake rumours. 54 21.09%
 
Regular PS4 with 4K Blu-ray player 119 46.48%
 
PS4 with double the power 49 19.14%
 
PS4 with games in 4K and 60fps 12 4.69%
 
Godstation 22 8.59%
 
Total:256
DM235 on 01 April 2016
kitler53 said:
DM235 said:

They moved to x86 architecture because it was cheaper, not because it was better.

And monthly contracts make upgrades bearable.  The costs are spread out over 2 years (for most phone contracts anyway), so most people are perfectly happy to upgrade to better hardware when their contract is up.  I don't think the mass market is ready to buy new consoles every 2 years.  If they don't, then deveoplers will not have any incentive to spend the effort to make games take advantage of the new hardware (and worry about supporting multiple platforms).  If the games aren't any better, then there is even less incentive to upgrade.  People are perfectly happy with upgrading once every 5 or so years.

Also, Sony and Microsoft don't make their money from the hardware.  They make their money from the software.  Their goal is make the hardware as cheap as possible, to sell to as many people as possible.  I just don't see them spending money on R&D to develop something slightly better (and more expensive).  If anything, they'll spend it to develop the same features for less money (such as a slim model).  I am not even convinced that they would add in a UHD Bluray drive because of the extra cost.

no one is asking you to upgrade every 2 years. 

both the ps4 and the ps4k will play the same games.  the ps4k will probably play games at that only run at 30fps on ps4 at 60fps.  some people care a lot about that and will upgrade.  some people won't give a shit and won't upgrade.  because games will be forward/backward compatible you can litterally wait as long as you want to upgrade.  older hardware versions will run a bit worse than newer hardware versions.  as a consumer you can decide what kind of performance you want.  if you are real graphics whore you can upgrade ever 2 years.  if you don't care that a game runs at 30fps and maybe 900p instead of 1080p than you can probably wait 12 years.  there will always be a higher end model to buy (~$400) but there will always be a lower end model to buy too (~$200 or $300) if you can't afford to spend a lot of money.  your library lasts "forever" instead of being abandon each generation. 

developers can and will optimize for each hardware.  they already do it on pc and that enviornment is far more complex because instead of having 2-4 hardware versions to target there are literally thousands of variants to consider on pc.  it won't be "free" for them to do this kind of development but i think developers will prefer this kind of problem to the alternative problem of starting a project 3-4 years prior to knowing what the specs of the machine the game will run on will actually be.  business love predictability.  it helps them plan which is crucial when starting a project that lasts several years.

If the hardware changes every 2 years, then it will be very unpredictable, impossible to plan, and businesses will hate it.  Based on what you said above, the hardware could change twice during a single 3-4 year project.  Are you sure developers would prefer this to a fixed, 5-year console cycle?

And if there are 2 models to buy, and each one has different SKUs for various hard drive sizes, and various SKUs for game bundles, you will also annoy retailers, who barely have enough shelf space / storage space, or knowledgable staff, to deal with all of this.

Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think they should just stick to hard drive upgrades, game bundles and slim models.



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kitler53 on 01 April 2016
DM235 said:
kitler53 said:

no one is asking you to upgrade every 2 years. 

both the ps4 and the ps4k will play the same games.  the ps4k will probably play games at that only run at 30fps on ps4 at 60fps.  some people care a lot about that and will upgrade.  some people won't give a shit and won't upgrade.  because games will be forward/backward compatible you can litterally wait as long as you want to upgrade.  older hardware versions will run a bit worse than newer hardware versions.  as a consumer you can decide what kind of performance you want.  if you are real graphics whore you can upgrade ever 2 years.  if you don't care that a game runs at 30fps and maybe 900p instead of 1080p than you can probably wait 12 years.  there will always be a higher end model to buy (~$400) but there will always be a lower end model to buy too (~$200 or $300) if you can't afford to spend a lot of money.  your library lasts "forever" instead of being abandon each generation. 

developers can and will optimize for each hardware.  they already do it on pc and that enviornment is far more complex because instead of having 2-4 hardware versions to target there are literally thousands of variants to consider on pc.  it won't be "free" for them to do this kind of development but i think developers will prefer this kind of problem to the alternative problem of starting a project 3-4 years prior to knowing what the specs of the machine the game will run on will actually be.  business love predictability.  it helps them plan which is crucial when starting a project that lasts several years.

If the hardware changes every 2 years, then it will be very unpredictable, impossible to plan, and businesses will hate it.  Based on what you said above, the hardware could change twice during a single 3-4 year project.  Are you sure developers would prefer this to a fixed, 5-year console cycle?

And if there are 2 models to buy, and each one has different SKUs for various hard drive sizes, and various SKUs for game bundles, you will also annoy retailers, who barely have enough shelf space / storage space, or knowledgable staff, to deal with all of this.

Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think they should just stick to hard drive upgrades, game bundles and slim models.

being forward/backwards compatible in part means targeting the the old version first and then optimizing forward.  that's how iphone developers work at least.  no one targets the latest and greatest they target the version 2 versions back.  new development will basically target the latest version of the hardware when the project starts or 1 hardware revision back (depending on MSony's release schedule and the development's expected development length) and then when the project completes they'll optimize a bit for any newer hardware versions.

i don't believe anyone will make development targeted for the ps4k for quite a while,.. like 3-6 years.  they will develop for the ps4 and do a bit of optimization for the ps4k when it happens.  a game that released in 2015 will never be optimized to take advantage of any of the newer hardware revisions but a game that released in 2015 will always work on any of the newer hardware revisions.

i think we'll see less skus dedicated to harddrive size like we did last gen.  if the harddrive size is changed it will piggyback on to the interal hardware revisions.  harddrives are upgradable anyways so there isn't really a need to have too many sizes and being that this gen installs are manditory there is no reason to have a tiny (4Gb) drive like last gen  supported.



DM235 on 01 April 2016
SvennoJ said:
DM235 said:

Thanks for that info.

I could not find anything to figure out what the real cost difference is between a UHD player and a standard Bluray player.  Given that upscaling Bluray players cost about $150 (so these would already have an HDMI 2.0 port and support HDCP), there is a $250 upcharge for the audio decoder, H.265 decoder, better laser lenses / servos / etc (which I am assuming would be needed to support the higher dot pitch), and probably some additional licensing costs for a true UHD Bluray player.  Even if the PS4 can already handle the audio decoding and H.265 decoding in software, there would still be additional costs associated with supporting UHD.  I am not quite sure that these would be insignificant (I am assuming at least $100 worth).

HEVC or h.265 decoder is already in those $150 streaming upscaling 4K blu-ray players, just not at that bandwidth. Dolby Atmos is already on blu-ray, yet also not at the max 4K discs allow (upto 1536khz sample rate and max 32 channels). Licensing costs are probably not that much for Sony, I doubt the costs would be very much. Plus BDXL is already at the higher dot pitch, 100GB BDXL discs are triple layer discs (BDXL goes up to 128GB) A 16x speed BDXL burner is already down to $84 new at retail and some people at avs forum speculate that the current ps4 bd-rom player is already capable. It's old tech.

However the absence of any 4K UHD player announcement by Sony is suspicious. Do they want to focus on their 4K streaming service first or do they want to position the ps4 slim as the ultimate multi media device (remote sold separately or phone app). The former might be more likely as you would think that Sony would want to at least release a high end THX certified player, which the ps4 won't be.

If that's true, and they can really add UHD support without any cost increases at retail (and with only minor expenses on their side), it would be a great trojan horse to push 4K Bluray into many people's homes.  Not that this would directly earn lots of revenue, but it would be a great favour to the many other movie studios / publishers who are obviously betting on UHD becoming the next big seller.

If this does cost a significant amount, then it would ruin their "for the gamers" message, and repeat the mistakes that Microsoft made by betting on a media center console (or Sony themselves with the PS3).

As for the absence of their own UHD player, I also find that very strange.  Their entire electronics division seems to be falling behind the competition (from Bluray players to TVs).  

The THX certification isn't a big deal for me, as from what I understand, you can exceed the specs, but if you don't pay money for the certification, you cannot say you meet it.  It seems like more of a checkbox you need for marketing.  The OPPO BDP-103D, which is probably one of the best Bluray players, doesn't have THX either.



DM235 on 01 April 2016
kitler53 said:
DM235 said:

If the hardware changes every 2 years, then it will be very unpredictable, impossible to plan, and businesses will hate it.  Based on what you said above, the hardware could change twice during a single 3-4 year project.  Are you sure developers would prefer this to a fixed, 5-year console cycle?

And if there are 2 models to buy, and each one has different SKUs for various hard drive sizes, and various SKUs for game bundles, you will also annoy retailers, who barely have enough shelf space / storage space, or knowledgable staff, to deal with all of this.

Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think they should just stick to hard drive upgrades, game bundles and slim models.

being forward/backwards compatible in part means targeting the the old version first and then optimizing forward.  that's how iphone developers work at least.  no one targets the latest and greatest they target the version 2 versions back.  new development will basically target the latest version of the hardware when the project starts or 1 hardware revision back (depending on MSony's release schedule and the development's expected development length) and then when the project completes they'll optimize a bit for any newer hardware versions.

i don't believe anyone will make development targeted for the ps4k for quite a while,.. like 3-6 years.  they will develop for the ps4 and do a bit of optimization for the ps4k when it happens.  a game that released in 2015 will never be optimized to take advantage of any of the newer hardware revisions but a game that released in 2015 will always work on any of the newer hardware revisions.

i think we'll see less skus dedicated to harddrive size like we did last gen.  if the harddrive size is changed it will piggyback on to the interal hardware revisions.  harddrives are upgradable anyways so there isn't really a need to have too many sizes and being that this gen installs are manditory there is no reason to have a tiny (4Gb) drive like last gen  supported.

I get what you are saying.  If Sony builds a robust OS, and handles all of the drivers in the background to handle all of the different hardware revisions (which I am assuming Apple does with iOS), developers can target any particular revision, and then do some regression testing to confirm it still works with the other hardware revisions.

If this happens, would there ever be a PS5?  Personally, I think I would miss that "wow" you get from a totally new generation of hardware if they just decide to do incremental changes for 10 years (and I guess the "wow" would still be there if you compare revision 5 to revision 1, but i think it would be somewhat hidden if you compare revision 5 to revision 4, for example).



ZahaDoom on 01 April 2016

 As someone with a older iphone, I can certainly tell you developers DO NOT target the lower devices. Certain apps crash or don't even run, there have been a few apps now that literally are missing functuous vs running on an iPhone 6.

 

 Apple's model might sound great on paper but in reality it's not working. You realize there's a lawsuit against apple currently, for making older models unusable with the latest iOS revisions.

 

 I laughed when Microsoft said they were going to "refresh" or upgrade the Xbone, and I could see them doing it because they went from having the greatest console to not understanding the console market, but I didn't think Sony would entertain such an idea. I guess we will just have to wait for Sony to respond to this "rumor".



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patronmacabre on 01 April 2016

A PS4 with 4K output and an Ultra Blu-Ray player makes sense. I would not be surprised if that is what the PS4K is.
A PS4 with completely different internals is absolutely moronic on so many different levels. I refuse to believe Sony is so dumb that they will make one of the best selling consoles of all time obsolete.



Madword on 01 April 2016
Turkish said:
DM235 said:

I understand why you would think that, but to include a 4K Bluray player, Sony would have to raise the price to $599, or keep it at $399 but lose lots of money on each sale.  I think they learned their lesson from the PS3 and they won't do that.  They also don't have a competing format (HD-DVD) to go against, so I think there is less incentive to go all out like this.  If you look back at the beginning of this generation, Microsoft tried the media center angle, and that did no go well for them.

If you give gamers the choice of a $299 slim PS4, or a $399 or $499 PS4 with 4K Bluray, I think most would chose the cheaper model.

No they don't, you don't know how much it costs for Sony to put the 4k bluray player in a ps4, a year from now.

And exactly, the rumors say Sony will keep selling the old ps4, so I expect a $299 slim ps4 for the gamers, and $399-499 ps4k for the enthusiast.

I think I agree with your suggestions Turkish.

At the moment it doesnt seem that 4k BR is that expensive ($300), I would expect the price of PS4 components to drop and the price of a 4K BR to drop, and it would be possible me thinks to get that in at $499.

It makes perfect sense that they would make a 4K version with BR player, make it your key product, you'll sell more of them that way. This whole more power and PS4 is obsolete is some real poor reporting by websites again imho.



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ZahaDoom on 01 April 2016
patronmacabre said:
A PS4 with 4K output and an Ultra Blu-Ray player makes sense. I would not be surprised if that is what the PS4K is.
A PS4 with completely different internals is absolutely moronic on so many different levels. I refuse to believe Sony is so dumb that they will make one of the best selling consoles of all time obsolete.

 I totally agree.



leo-j on 01 April 2016

I am hoping that it does not.... but unfortunately it more than likely is real.... the age of the yearly smartphone upgrade is the cause for this.... SONY in a great position to experiment the same strategy of year or bi yearly smartphone upgrades, people buy a new galaxy that costs well over 600 dollars every year,... why can't they do the same for consoles???? This is probably the situation..., if the PS4K is a reality



 

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KBG29 on 01 April 2016
DM235 said:
kitler53 said:

being forward/backwards compatible in part means targeting the the old version first and then optimizing forward.  that's how iphone developers work at least.  no one targets the latest and greatest they target the version 2 versions back.  new development will basically target the latest version of the hardware when the project starts or 1 hardware revision back (depending on MSony's release schedule and the development's expected development length) and then when the project completes they'll optimize a bit for any newer hardware versions.

i don't believe anyone will make development targeted for the ps4k for quite a while,.. like 3-6 years.  they will develop for the ps4 and do a bit of optimization for the ps4k when it happens.  a game that released in 2015 will never be optimized to take advantage of any of the newer hardware revisions but a game that released in 2015 will always work on any of the newer hardware revisions.

i think we'll see less skus dedicated to harddrive size like we did last gen.  if the harddrive size is changed it will piggyback on to the interal hardware revisions.  harddrives are upgradable anyways so there isn't really a need to have too many sizes and being that this gen installs are manditory there is no reason to have a tiny (4Gb) drive like last gen  supported.

I get what you are saying.  If Sony builds a robust OS, and handles all of the drivers in the background to handle all of the different hardware revisions (which I am assuming Apple does with iOS), developers can target any particular revision, and then do some regression testing to confirm it still works with the other hardware revisions.

If this happens, would there ever be a PS5?  Personally, I think I would miss that "wow" you get from a totally new generation of hardware if they just decide to do incremental changes for 10 years (and I guess the "wow" would still be there if you compare revision 5 to revision 1, but i think it would be somewhat hidden if you compare revision 5 to revision 4, for example).

There will absolutly be a PS5, that will be the moment when Sony ends 1st party dvelopment for the PS4 series of consoles. When they transition from the PS4 series to the PS5 series, it will be a simple indicater to consumers that PS5 games only work on PS5 devices. 

Of course PS5 will also play PS4 games, as PS5 will be fully backwards compatible with all PS4 software from day one. It will also come with a fully fledged OS as well, and won't be seeing the reset we saw from X360/PS3 to XBO/PS4.

As far as the wow factor of PS5 goes. It will be substancial. When we move from 100MBps 5400RPM (500MBps PS4K) as the standard to 2GBps SSD's, it will greatly change the development landscape. We will jump from 8GB of GDDR5 (32GB in the PS4K+) to 128GB of Stacked RAM, and a 1.84 TFLOP APU (8 TFlops in PS4K+) to 40Tflops of power in PS5. This will bring rich 4K VR experinces at 120fps, and 8K in the traditional flat panel gaming. 

I see PS4K hitting early next year based on what Sony has said about bringing 4K media players out. Then I think we will see the PS4K+ around 2019. That will lead us to the PS5 in 2023 - 2024 which shold be right around when a console with the specs above would be possible at the sub $500 price range.

The reason I think this has to happen is that we will not have the tech available in 2018 - 2020 to make a PS5 that does anything PS4 can't already do. All you would have in a $500 system is at most a 500MBps 2TB SSD, 64GB of RAM, and a 12 - 15TFLOP APU. That is only going to give you PS4 games in 4K/60fps, it is not enough to push gaming to a new level, and therefore a completely new console cycle at that point would be a complete waste, but the PS4K+ as stated above, would be a perfect $400 unit to cap off an awesome run on the PS4 APU tech.



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