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Forums - Microsoft - Phil Spencer Signals Xbox One Hardware Upgrades

potato_hamster on 02 March 2016
TheMessiah said:
potato_hamster said:

Can V1A games play all games V1C games? No, maybe some but not all. That's an enormous problem. Maybe multiplayer can work, but if V1B users have a fundamental advantage because they're playing at 60 fps and V1A users are playing at 30 fps, then again, that's an enormous problem. That's why when you have competitive gaming competitions, everyone plays on spec PCs. They don't bring their own.

Also "running on" and "running acceptably" could be months and months and months of work. I worked on porting a PS3 game to the PS Vita before the Vita was released and the developer kits and tools weren't finalized. We had the game "running on" the vita within a couple months, running at less than 1 frame per second, but it was technically running. It took another 6 before we had the game at a level that was "playable" (about 20 fps), and another 2 before we had the game running at 28 fps. See optimization, and tweaks to account for things like different screen resolutions, control inputs, etc. all take time, and they all need to be done. Also there's a vast difference between porting a simple pacman clone and porting say, Halo 5 to work on a tablet.

The xbox 360 ran games in 2012 that PC was running at much much lower specs. As I said in my initial post. PS4 wont run any PS5 games when PS5 releases in 6 years. So it will not be unusual for Xbox version 2013 not to run games by 2020/2021. The same way Iphone 3g cannot run apps from IOS 7  or higher. But say Version 2 from 2016 will be fine for games till 2025. The choice becomes entirley the consumers instead of being stuck with hardware for 6-8 years which is weak by the 2nd year. Consoles are the only tech the exists well after its obselete.

As for online play. If version 2 is running 1080p 60 fps multiplayer, version 1 just drops to 720p 60 fps. By the time Version 3 is out the first version is 6 years old and will be close to not playing new games. Just like PS4 cant play PS5 games when it releases.

As for the video. They showed a simple game because clearly they had limited time. Epic already have showed the same with Unreal Engine 4. Fable LEgends and Sea Of thieves are using the 1 code method which is being called UWP. ( Universal Windows Platfrom ). And Sam Lake recently talked about how easy it was to get Quantum Break up and running on PC. So much so, PC version is releasing same time as Xbox One. And PC didnt start development till well into Xbox One development accoding to Remedy.

Stuck? That's a benefit of consoles. I don't ever have to worry if any game with "PS4" written as its platform will not work on my PS4. That is an enormous selling point you are taking away. It will lead to consumer confusion, frustration, and platform abandonment. If consumers want to upgrade hardware every few years to get better performance, there's already a platform that does that. It's called the PC. If that's what consumers want, they can just buy a PC. Why bother getting an over-priced, underpowered Xbox 1B when you can just get a PC for a little more, not pay for online, and play all the X1 exclusives anyways because they're all coming to PC. You are giving consumers less of a reason to buy an X1, not a bigger one.

As for online play, you're assuming that version 1 can run at 720p, 60 fps. That's a big assumption. Frame rate is only one aspect that could be a disadvantage. Resolution can also be a disadvantage, if the enhanced resolution , or better shaders, or better draw distance, or better collision detection, etc. make it easier to spot enemies then the player with the newer console has a competitive advantage. Theses are all things that have to be developed with the lowest common denominator in mind to ensure fairness. You're glossing over this when it is clearly a huge deal that must be considered. The gameplay needs to be exactly the same across both models in order for it to be fair. That means additional testing and development, and likely means an impeded online experience for the powerful consoles, as developers will just take the easy way out and develop for the lowest common denominator. We've seen it time and time again, because making video games is really hard and reallly expensive.

As for the video. I watched the whole thing. It's really wonderful how much easier it is to get xbox live features on PC games. That's pretty much all it really shows though, everything else has pretty much been par for the course on multi-platform engines for a while. While it may be easier to port games from X1 to PC than it was X360 to PC, it's still not a matter of a simple recompliation. It's not a simple matter of making a PC game and it "just working on X1". There is still serious work needs to be done to port games, work that many developers may be unable or unwilling to do. This means that the PC and X1 will continue to have separate libraries.



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se7en7thre3 on 02 March 2016

MS and gamestop better have a decent trade in program otherwise its gonna piss (me) off many owners.



TheMessiah on 02 March 2016
potato_hamster said:
TheMessiah said:

The xbox 360 ran games in 2012 that PC was running at much much lower specs. As I said in my initial post. PS4 wont run any PS5 games when PS5 releases in 6 years. So it will not be unusual for Xbox version 2013 not to run games by 2020/2021. The same way Iphone 3g cannot run apps from IOS 7  or higher. But say Version 2 from 2016 will be fine for games till 2025. The choice becomes entirley the consumers instead of being stuck with hardware for 6-8 years which is weak by the 2nd year. Consoles are the only tech the exists well after its obselete.

As for online play. If version 2 is running 1080p 60 fps multiplayer, version 1 just drops to 720p 60 fps. By the time Version 3 is out the first version is 6 years old and will be close to not playing new games. Just like PS4 cant play PS5 games when it releases.

As for the video. They showed a simple game because clearly they had limited time. Epic already have showed the same with Unreal Engine 4. Fable LEgends and Sea Of thieves are using the 1 code method which is being called UWP. ( Universal Windows Platfrom ). And Sam Lake recently talked about how easy it was to get Quantum Break up and running on PC. So much so, PC version is releasing same time as Xbox One. And PC didnt start development till well into Xbox One development accoding to Remedy.

Stuck? That's a benefit of consoles. I don't ever have to worry if any game with "PS4" written as its platform will not work on my PS4. That is an enormous selling point you are taking away. It will lead to consumer confusion, frustration, and platform abandonment. If consumers want to upgrade hardware every few years to get better performance, there's already a platform that does that. It's called the PC. If that's what consumers want, they can just buy a PC. Why bother getting an over-priced, underpowered Xbox 1B when you can just get a PC for a little more, not pay for online, and play all the X1 exclusives anyways because they're all coming to PC. You are giving consumers less of a reason to buy an X1, not a bigger one.

As for online play, you're assuming that version 1 can run at 720p, 60 fps. That's a big assumption. Frame rate is only one aspect that could be a disadvantage. Resolution can also be a disadvantage, if the enhanced resolution , or better shaders, or better draw distance, or better collision detection, etc. make it easier to spot enemies then the player with the newer console has a competitive advantage. Theses are all things that have to be developed with the lowest common denominator in mind to ensure fairness. You're glossing over this when it is clearly a huge deal that must be considered. The gameplay needs to be exactly the same across both models in order for it to be fair. That means additional testing and development, and likely means an impeded online experience for the powerful consoles, as developers will just take the easy way out and develop for the lowest common denominator. We've seen it time and time again, because making video games is really hard and reallly expensive.

As for the video. I watched the whole thing. It's really wonderful how much easier it is to get xbox live features on PC games. That's pretty much all it really shows though, everything else has pretty much been par for the course on multi-platform engines for a while. While it may be easier to port games from X1 to PC than it was X360 to PC, it's still not a matter of a simple recompliation. It's not a simple matter of making a PC game and it "just working on X1". There is still serious work needs to be done to port games, work that many developers may be unable or unwilling to do. This means that the PC and X1 will continue to have separate libraries.

Noones taking anything away. Nothing. There is no confusion. Another example. Rise Of The Tomb Raider. One of the best visuals Ive played through this gen on console. Its utterly gorgeous. 900p @ 30 fps. Its also managed to run on 11 year old hardware the 360 at 720p 30fps.

Your talking about fragmentation for consoles between a 6-8 year time frame. Thats just not going to happen. As I keep saying history shows the Xbox One 2013 model would be able to run all the games right up to around 2021 ( ROTR, Titanfall, COD, Battlefield etc ). No different than it would without Microsoft announcing this plan. The only difference being Micosoft are giving consumers who want to upgrade the choice. Because they control Windows 10 they can. They are in a position to give something back to console gamers as well as PC gamers.

Its brilliant news. And Ill be upgrading as soon as I can. If you dont want to thats fine. Or you can just play Xbox on Windows 10 PC. The choic is yours as Microsoft have said 



TheMessiah on 02 March 2016
se7en7thre3 said:
MS and gamestop better have a decent trade in program otherwise its gonna piss (me) off many owners.

Why? You know you wont have to upgrade if you dont want to. Your existing Xbox one 2013 will run all games till 2021. Just like PS4.



potato_hamster on 02 March 2016
TheMessiah said:
potato_hamster said:

Stuck? That's a benefit of consoles. I don't ever have to worry if any game with "PS4" written as its platform will not work on my PS4. That is an enormous selling point you are taking away. It will lead to consumer confusion, frustration, and platform abandonment. If consumers want to upgrade hardware every few years to get better performance, there's already a platform that does that. It's called the PC. If that's what consumers want, they can just buy a PC. Why bother getting an over-priced, underpowered Xbox 1B when you can just get a PC for a little more, not pay for online, and play all the X1 exclusives anyways because they're all coming to PC. You are giving consumers less of a reason to buy an X1, not a bigger one.

As for online play, you're assuming that version 1 can run at 720p, 60 fps. That's a big assumption. Frame rate is only one aspect that could be a disadvantage. Resolution can also be a disadvantage, if the enhanced resolution , or better shaders, or better draw distance, or better collision detection, etc. make it easier to spot enemies then the player with the newer console has a competitive advantage. Theses are all things that have to be developed with the lowest common denominator in mind to ensure fairness. You're glossing over this when it is clearly a huge deal that must be considered. The gameplay needs to be exactly the same across both models in order for it to be fair. That means additional testing and development, and likely means an impeded online experience for the powerful consoles, as developers will just take the easy way out and develop for the lowest common denominator. We've seen it time and time again, because making video games is really hard and reallly expensive.

As for the video. I watched the whole thing. It's really wonderful how much easier it is to get xbox live features on PC games. That's pretty much all it really shows though, everything else has pretty much been par for the course on multi-platform engines for a while. While it may be easier to port games from X1 to PC than it was X360 to PC, it's still not a matter of a simple recompliation. It's not a simple matter of making a PC game and it "just working on X1". There is still serious work needs to be done to port games, work that many developers may be unable or unwilling to do. This means that the PC and X1 will continue to have separate libraries.

Noones taking anything away. Nothing. There is no confusion. Another example. Rise Of The Tomb Raider. One of the best visuals Ive played through this gen on console. Its utterly gorgeous. 900p @ 30 fps. Its also managed to run on 11 year old hardware the 360 at 720p 30fps.

Your talking about fragmentation for consoles between a 6-8 year time frame. Thats just not going to happen. As I keep saying history shows the Xbox One 2013 model would be able to run all the games right up to around 2021 ( ROTR, Titanfall, COD, Battlefield etc ). No different than it would without Microsoft announcing this plan. The only difference being Micosoft are giving consumers who want to upgrade the choice. Because they control Windows 10 they can. They are in a position to give something back to console gamers as well as PC gamers.

Its brilliant news. And Ill be upgrading as soon as I can. If you dont want to thats fine. Or you can just play Xbox on Windows 10 PC. The choic is yours as Microsoft have said 

Can you play ROTTR multiplayer on X1 with other X360 players? No? Well it's not the same thing is it?

The fragmentation absoluitely will happen, in a similar way that the X360 and X1 users are fragmented. You're just asking Microsoft to fragment their userbase every 3 years rather than every 8-10, and that will piss many many many people off.



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TheMessiah on 02 March 2016
potato_hamster said:
TheMessiah said:

Noones taking anything away. Nothing. There is no confusion. Another example. Rise Of The Tomb Raider. One of the best visuals Ive played through this gen on console. Its utterly gorgeous. 900p @ 30 fps. Its also managed to run on 11 year old hardware the 360 at 720p 30fps.

Your talking about fragmentation for consoles between a 6-8 year time frame. Thats just not going to happen. As I keep saying history shows the Xbox One 2013 model would be able to run all the games right up to around 2021 ( ROTR, Titanfall, COD, Battlefield etc ). No different than it would without Microsoft announcing this plan. The only difference being Micosoft are giving consumers who want to upgrade the choice. Because they control Windows 10 they can. They are in a position to give something back to console gamers as well as PC gamers.

Its brilliant news. And Ill be upgrading as soon as I can. If you dont want to thats fine. Or you can just play Xbox on Windows 10 PC. The choic is yours as Microsoft have said 

Can you play ROTTR multiplayer on X1 with other X360 players? No? Well it's not the same thing is it?

The fragmentation absoluitely will happen, in a similar way that the X360 and X1 users are fragmented. You're just asking Microsoft to fragment their userbase every 3 years rather than every 8-10, and that will piss many many many people off.

There is no multiplayer in ROTR. Tianfall though you can. 360 vs Xbox One. But that was harder to do.

The 360 isnt the same OS or Live servers as Xbox One. Your completely dismissing that every iteration of Xbox version will run on the exact same OS and Log into the same Live Servers. Hence why Phil also talked about all your games from digital You buy always stay with you and are playable on every iteration of Console. Like PC can. The whole point of UWP ( Universal Windows Platform ) would be utterly pointless if Microsoft stopped using Windows 10 in 3 years time. on Xbox.

Remember Microsoft announced Windows 10 is the last ever Windows. From her on out they will just evolve Windows 10. There will be no 11 or 12.



potato_hamster on 02 March 2016
TheMessiah said:
potato_hamster said:

Can you play ROTTR multiplayer on X1 with other X360 players? No? Well it's not the same thing is it?

The fragmentation absoluitely will happen, in a similar way that the X360 and X1 users are fragmented. You're just asking Microsoft to fragment their userbase every 3 years rather than every 8-10, and that will piss many many many people off.

There is no multiplayer in ROTR. Tianfall though you can. 360 vs Xbox One. But that was harder to do.

The 360 isnt the same OS or Live servers as Xbox One. Your completely dismissing that every iteration of Xbox version will run on the exact same OS and Log into the same Live Servers. Hence why Phil also talked about all your games from digital You buy always stay with you and are playable on every iteration of Console. Like PC can. The whole point of UWP ( Universal Windows Platform ) would be utterly pointless if Microsoft stopped using Windows 10 in 3 years time. on Xbox.

Remember Microsoft announced Windows 10 is the last ever Windows. From her on out they will just evolve Windows 10. There will be no 11 or 12.

Yeah my bad. They cut it last minute. I forgot. Can you tell me why it was "harder to do" on Titanfall. I bet it has a lot to do with the games running differently on each console! Wait, that's exactly what I was talking about! It won't "just work". MS could have made the 360 and X1 run the exact same OS and log into the same Live servers. In fact if they're playing titanfall together they have to be logging into at least some of the live servers.

As for PC backwards compatibility. Just try installing the original Grand Theft Auto on Windows 10, and tell me how well it runs natively without any modification. I'll give you a hint: It won't.



Also, LOL at Windows 10 being the last ever Windows. It might be the last Microsoft OS called "Windows",  but if you think everyone will be using WIndows 10 in 30 years time you're going to be in at a rude awakening. Picture Mac OS X. It's been called OS X for like 15 years, but try to get a computer running the OS X 10.1 to run the lastest version of pretty much anything and have it run well. You need to lay off eating up the marketing speak.



TheMessiah on 02 March 2016
potato_hamster said:
TheMessiah said:

There is no multiplayer in ROTR. Tianfall though you can. 360 vs Xbox One. But that was harder to do.

The 360 isnt the same OS or Live servers as Xbox One. Your completely dismissing that every iteration of Xbox version will run on the exact same OS and Log into the same Live Servers. Hence why Phil also talked about all your games from digital You buy always stay with you and are playable on every iteration of Console. Like PC can. The whole point of UWP ( Universal Windows Platform ) would be utterly pointless if Microsoft stopped using Windows 10 in 3 years time. on Xbox.

Remember Microsoft announced Windows 10 is the last ever Windows. From her on out they will just evolve Windows 10. There will be no 11 or 12.

Yeah my bad. They cut it last minute. I forgot. Can you tell me why it was "harder to do" on Titanfall. I bet it has a lot to do with the games running differently on each console! Wait, that's exactly what I was talking about! It won't "just work". MS could have made the 360 and X1 run the exact same OS and log into the same Live servers. In fact if they're playing titanfall together they have to be logging into at least some of the live servers.

As for PC backwards compatibility. Just try installing the original Grand Theft Auto on Windows 10, and tell me how well it runs natively without any modification. I'll give you a hint: It won't.



Also, LOL at Windows 10 being the last ever Windows. It might be the last Microsoft OS called "Windows",  but if you think everyone will be using WIndows 10 in 30 years time you're going to be in at a rude awakening. Picture Mac OS X. It's been called OS X for like 15 years, but try to get a computer running the OS X 10.1 to run the lastest version of pretty much anything and have it run well. You need to lay off eating up the marketing speak.

The 360 didn't even run windows 8. It ran a custom os. Xbox One runs the exact same Windows 10 as PC right now. That's why it wouldn't fragment with Xbox moving forward. the same way galaxy s5 and s6 both run the latest os.

The point is Titanfall on 360 was not on the same servers as Titanfall Xbox One. Largely because 360 and Xbox One are on different Xbox lives so to speak. All these issues wont exist with what Microsoft are moving forward with now.

The same way my dad still uses iPhone 4s, people will still use the 2013 Xbox one. connect to the same Xbox live as version 2 and 3 and run the same windows 10 version as well. Until a point in time when the tech inside can't keep up. Just like IPhone 3g is no longer powerful enough to run past ios version 6.

Its not that difficult to understand.

 

Of course Windows 10 will evolve, but it will now evolve with hardware. As opposed to releasing brand new Windows after a time. Exactly like where Xbox console is heading.



potato_hamster on 02 March 2016
TheMessiah said:
potato_hamster said:

Yeah my bad. They cut it last minute. I forgot. Can you tell me why it was "harder to do" on Titanfall. I bet it has a lot to do with the games running differently on each console! Wait, that's exactly what I was talking about! It won't "just work". MS could have made the 360 and X1 run the exact same OS and log into the same Live servers. In fact if they're playing titanfall together they have to be logging into at least some of the live servers.

As for PC backwards compatibility. Just try installing the original Grand Theft Auto on Windows 10, and tell me how well it runs natively without any modification. I'll give you a hint: It won't.



Also, LOL at Windows 10 being the last ever Windows. It might be the last Microsoft OS called "Windows",  but if you think everyone will be using WIndows 10 in 30 years time you're going to be in at a rude awakening. Picture Mac OS X. It's been called OS X for like 15 years, but try to get a computer running the OS X 10.1 to run the lastest version of pretty much anything and have it run well. You need to lay off eating up the marketing speak.

The 360 didn't even run windows 8. It ran a custom os. Xbox One runs the exact same Windows 10 as PC right now. That's why it wouldn't fragment with Xbox moving forward. the same way galaxy s5 and s6 both run the latest os.

The point is Titanfall on 360 was not on the same servers as Titanfall Xbox One. Largely because 360 and Xbox One are on different Xbox lives so to speak. All these issues wont exist with what Microsoft are moving forward with now.

The same way my dad still uses iPhone 4s, people will still use the 2013 Xbox one. connect to the same Xbox live as version 2 and 3 and run the same windows 10 version as well. Until a point in time when the tech inside can't keep up. Just like IPhone 3g is no longer powerful enough to run past ios version 6.

Its not that difficult to understand.

 

Of course Windows 10 will evolve, but it will now evolve with hardware. As opposed to releasing brand new Windows after a time. Exactly like where Xbox console is heading.

Literally everything you just posted, everything, does absolutely nothing to address to comments I made above. It doesn't matter what the X360 ran or the X1 ran now. The fact of the matter if both of those consoles are used to play the same game on the same match on the same server then at least in some cases they must be on the same servers. Are you trying to say that this is why they had to put in extra work in order to get the game run? That they didn't have to do anything to account for the fact the games are running at different resolutions, different frame rates, with different draw distances, different textures, and animations, different shaders, different anti-aliasing effects. Nothing was done to ensure the gameplay was fair and equal on both consoles? Nothing at all? Source please.

So your dad uses the iPhone 4s. Does he expect the latest games made for the iPhone 6s to work on his iPhone 4s? Probably not. His iPhone 4s is only 4 YEARS OLD, and it's already completely redundant for new software. Can you imagine buying a console on release and 4 years later not being able to buy the latest games coming out for Xbox consoles on it?That is completely unacceptable for console gamers. Completely unacceptable, and you're glossing over it as if it doesn't matter. If most consoles gamers cared about having the latest and greatest technology every 3-4 years they would buy a PC! This model completely screws over Xbox console gamers and you're in complete denial.



Soundwave on 02 March 2016
potato_hamster said:
TheMessiah said:

The 360 didn't even run windows 8. It ran a custom os. Xbox One runs the exact same Windows 10 as PC right now. That's why it wouldn't fragment with Xbox moving forward. the same way galaxy s5 and s6 both run the latest os.

The point is Titanfall on 360 was not on the same servers as Titanfall Xbox One. Largely because 360 and Xbox One are on different Xbox lives so to speak. All these issues wont exist with what Microsoft are moving forward with now.

The same way my dad still uses iPhone 4s, people will still use the 2013 Xbox one. connect to the same Xbox live as version 2 and 3 and run the same windows 10 version as well. Until a point in time when the tech inside can't keep up. Just like IPhone 3g is no longer powerful enough to run past ios version 6.

Its not that difficult to understand.

 

Of course Windows 10 will evolve, but it will now evolve with hardware. As opposed to releasing brand new Windows after a time. Exactly like where Xbox console is heading.

Literally everything you just posted, everything, does absolutely nothing to address to comments I made above. It doesn't matter what the X360 ran or the X1 ran now. The fact of the matter if both of those consoles are used to play the same game on the same match on the same server then at least in some cases they must be on the same servers. Are you trying to say that this is why they had to put in extra work in order to get the game run? That they didn't have to do anything to account for the fact the games are running at different resolutions, different frame rates, with different draw distances, different textures, and animations, different shaders, different anti-aliasing effects. Nothing was done to ensure the gameplay was fair and equal on both consoles? Nothing at all? Source please.

So your dad uses the iPhone 4s. Does he expect the latest games made for the iPhone 6s to work on his iPhone 4s? Probably not. His iPhone 4s is only 4 YEARS OLD, and it's already completely redundant for new software. Can you imagine buying a console on release and 4 years later not being able to buy the latest games coming out for Xbox consoles on it?That is completely unacceptable for console gamers. Completely unacceptable, and you're glossing over it as if it doesn't matter. If most consoles gamers cared about having the latest and greatest technology every 3-4 years they would buy a PC! This model completely screws over Xbox console gamers and you're in complete denial.

This is an assumption, we don't know this for sure because gamers have never really had a choice. 

The choice is either pay $200-$400 for a home console or like $1500+ for a PC with a significant performance bump. There's never been anything in the middle and most people don't hook up their PC to their TV, I don't know too many people when you go visit their home who have a giant freaking PC tower under their TV in the living room. 

The old model is the only choice we've been given as consumers, these companies have never offered us anything else. PC parts are sold at a massive price mark up, MS can still subsidize the price of these XBox upgrades/differing models, that alone is a huge difference, they can also keep it streamlined and TV centric so it's easy to upgrade and has a console like form factor that simply plugs and plays into any TV. 

MS is under no obligation to use the same business model that Sony does. In fact it's kind of stupid in their case since they are the lead OS for PC gaming already, keeping PC and XBox seperate was a bizarre choice from the get go.