Holy balls.

A question about Bernie Sanders has turned into a huge argument.

Damn people. I don't support anyone in any party. All I wanted to do was learn more about Sanders because I know nothing about his actual ideas.

A single payer system would save money, but at what cost?  

This is the best way for you to see the light.  I will pick two countries out of a list that you provided to me. Let us choose Austria and United Kingdom.  Sound fair?

You claim that these countries have it right but you don't see the entire big picture.  Rather than arguing back and forth, how about you just google search "Junior doctors United Kingdom".

Or better yet, I found a pretty nice publication in The Central European Journal of Medicine:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275664780_Physicians'_exodus_Why_medical_graduates_leave_Austria_or_do_not_work_in_clinical_practice

Go read and then come back to me.

On the social healthcare discussion. For me, one of the best things about leaving the UK is that I no longer have to deal with the mess that is the NHS.

Feeling ill? You best make sure it starts early in the morning, so that you can book your appointment by 8am. If you phone later than 8am, no appointment for you, try again tomorrow.

Got that appointment? Great, now you will get to spend 5 minutes with a GP where he will punch some numbers into his software which will tell him what's wrong with you. Something serious? Can't do anything without first seeing a specialist. Need to make an appointment.

Oh, three months waiting for that specialist, that's cool. Finally get to the appointment date, you show up on time, but still have to wait several hours, anyway. Specialist forwards you to another specialist.

Finally, after several months of bouncing around specialists, you're sent to your local hospital for surgery. You have to wait for a bed. Local hospital doesn't have the facilities to treat this particular disease? Need to travel up to the city, and wait even longer for a bed there.

Don't think you'll be treated with dignity, either, especially if the patient is older. Those who complain the least (ie, the most frail), get ignored. My granddad spent hours laying in his own filth.

I've been misdiagnosed twice, my dad was sent from one hospital to another via taxi when he showed up in A&E, my cousin died at the age of 16 due to misdiagnosis, and a family friend died of Pancreatic cancer while waiting for a bed up in London, because our local hospital did not have the means to handle it.

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Also, do not trust those who claim that NHS is a good idea from a financial perspective. The cost of the NHS has been growing at a faster rate than GDP for decades (which, obviously, includes NHS spending as a major component).

What would you think of an intermediate system (Germany)? Essential stuff covered, but available privat care for better service.

I don't know enough about Germany's system to comment. I live in Hong Kong, which is another middle-way situation, and is a thousand times better than the UK, in terms of costs and results.

HK runs a few public hospitals which provide subsidized (but not free) hospital care. Universities also have training facilities that provide subsidized care (subsidized because a lot of the staff will be in training). Just about everything else is private. It works out quite well, though I've never used a public hospital myself, and stick entirely with the private care (employer health insurance). My gf used a public hospital once, it wasn't a pleasant experience, but they got the job done.

Yeah, I think the essential lies in making sure none die, (or get ruined by necessary operations), while discouraging excessive use.

You've just struck the nail on the head. The issue with "insurance" model healthcare systems, whether public (like the UK), or private (like the US), is that there's no marginal cost of use, and so it encourages over-consumption, resulting in exploding costs.

It's why I prefer health-savings-accounts models. Read up on Singapore's system. The US could transition its medicaid and medicare programs over to HSAs. No expansion of Gov't power or costs (actually, both are reduced). Injects marginal cost, keeping demand reasonable, and brings about more savings which makes more a healthier finance industry.

Other potential fixes to America's system which would make both Repubs and Democrats happy:

Pie in the sky, as you suspected. But it certainly makes him an interesting candidate.

Choose your words more carefully next time.

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/avoidance

Their synonyms but they do not necessarily mean the same thing in differing contexts ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance

These links above are there to educate yourself for your own sake ...